Help. Socket removal

[335-pilot]

I have been asked to remove a few sockets which are to be plastered over. It's part of the ring main so it would be easiest to connect them up box in tape up and plaster up.Is this ok? Is it the best practice? Can I do it a better way?Cheers

 

[mayfair]

if they are in the right box and joined well eg wagos why tape them?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I have been asked to remove a few sockets which are to be plastered over. It's part of the ring main so it would be easiest to connect them up box in tape up and plaster up.Is this ok? Is it the best practice? Can I do it a better way?Cheers

Absolutely not.....apart from invisible joints in the wall,you will have live cables not in a safe zone....these sort of bodges are garanteed future problems. Pull the cables up under the floor and either use a suitable maintenance free joint box or rewire that section of the ring.

 

[335-pilot]

Sorry I'm newly qualified. Wagos? Was thinking of chocolate blocks and tape

 

[Singer]

Hi 335-pilot.
As you know all cables embedded in a wall feeding sockets, switches etc must be run in the safe zones - vertically or horizontally up or down or across from the accessory - but not diagonally - see regs for details.
If your cables feeding these sockets are embedded, you can assume(if they've been installed correctly) that the cables have been installed either horizontally or vertically from that accessory so you wouldn't drill or nail in those areas.
Take away the accessory and you have no indication that the cables are there and so run the risk of people nailing or drilling them in the future.
You can either replace them with blank plates thereby still retaining the safe zone indication or remove sockets AND cable by lifting floorboards and boxing.

 

[Singer]

WAGO's are brilliant - use them all the time!!!!!

 

[JUD]

Absolutely not.....apart from invisible joints in the wall,you will have live cables not in a safe zone....these sort of bodges are garanteed future problems. Pull the cables up under the floor and either use a suitable maintenance free joint box or rewire that section of the ring.

I'm with wirepuller on this one. If you remove the socket, you remove the safe zone it creates.

Sorry I'm newly qualified. Wagos? Was thinking of chocolate blocks and tape

Choc-blocks and tape is a very shoddy way of doing things. All connections should be made in a suitable enclosure.

 

[335-pilot]

So best way forward is totally remove all wiring and rewire ring? That is quite costly in time isn't it? I havnt seen the job yet but I will post back once inspected.

 

[Singer]

No that's not what's being said.
Pulling cables up from sockets and boxing under floorboards is hardly rewiring complete circuit - it's merely modifying what you have.

 

[JUD]

So best way forward is totally remove all wiring and rewire ring? That is quite costly in time isn't it? I havnt seen the job yet but I will post back once inspected.

You don't have to rewire the entire ring, just that section of the ring.

If the two wires entering the socket are coming from under floor or above ceiling, it's an easy fix. Just pull cables down under floor / up above ceiling and join in a choc-box or something. SIMPLES!!!

 

[Singer]

Sorry I'm newly qualified. Wagos? Was thinking of chocolate blocks and tape

WAGO's are maintenance free connectors.
If you terminate cables into a junction box and that junction box can't be accessed for maintenance ie under floorboards you must use maintenance free connections. WAGO's give you this option. They are incredibly simple to install - do all the connections first before you squeeze them all into the box - simple.

 

[mogga]

Your correct doing it properly as suggested by removing cablkes from wall and correctly joining or pulling in a new section of cable (Prefered option IMO) will be more expensive than a BODGE job but you willl sleep better having done a proper SAFE job rather than a cheap bodge unsafe job

 

[335-pilot]

Thanks chaps. I now have a plan. Either remove or leave blanking plates. Il have a look tomorrow night.

 

[tanglewood]

Hi, not even sure why your asking the question, any joins in cable must be accessible, quite a basic thing really. remove any accessories and you must make sure, usually by a blank plate that cables are run vetically or horizontally. That still doesn't change the point of ALL joins must be known and accessible.

 

[JUD]

Hi, not even sure why your asking the question, any joins in cable must be accessible, quite a basic thing really. remove any accessories and you must make sure, usually by a blank plate that cables are run vetically or horizontally. That still doesn't change the point of ALL joins must be known and accessible.

Apart from the exceptions described in 526.3.​

 

[tanglewood]

Not going to argue JUD, but all sparks are different all do their own thing as long as it complies, but i would never join a cable and see it plastered over.

 

[1shortcircuit]

Absolutely not.....apart from invisible joints in the wall,you will have live cables not in a safe zone....these sort of bodges are garanteed future problems.

If it's worth doing then it's worth doing right and being able to go home and sleep at night.

I was recently asked to do a similar job and was instructed by the boss to just remove accessories, join in the backbox and bag up so that they could be plastered over... Umm< don't flipping think so!!!

As has already been pointed out, there will be live cables concealed within the walls with no indication that they are there. You need to stick to the safe zones and if you can't then you need to well and truly cover your ---.

You must pull these cables out of the wall, it's the RIGHT way! :thumbsup

 

[MarkieSparkie]

Sorry I'm newly qualified. Wagos? Was thinking of chocolate blocks and tape

Chocolate blocks and tape are extreme bad practice and according to the association of Chief Fire Officers one of the major causes of house fires in the UK.

 

[malcolmsanford]

WAGO's are maintenance free connectors.
If you terminate cables into a junction box and that junction box can't be accessed for maintenance ie under floorboards you must use maintenance free connections. WAGO's give you this option. They are incredibly simple to install - do all the connections first before you squeeze them all into the box - simple.

The maintenance free junction boxes until 01/01/12 still also have to be accessible.

 

[Johnny-G]

The maintenance free junction boxes until 01/01/12 still also have to be accessible.

Now I'm confused, is that to do with the amendments?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Yes all the "maintenance free" connections were never actually recognised by the BS 7671-2008 it was always the manufacturers that regarded them as maintenance free, and so I think some sparks took it upon themselves to consider these as being non accessible joints but others, like myself never.

I haven't got the BGB with me yet but I believe that Reg 526.3 as been amended to include connections that are now regarded as maintenance free and not needed for inspection and testing, if they are marked "MF" and are to the manufacturers standards.

So I'm assuming that by 01/01/2012 you can consider WAGO connections to be of the inaccessible variety.

 

[Johnny-G]

Thought it would be something like that, in which case they can be considered maintenance free and suitable for inaccessible joints now as it's only after 1/1/12 that installations *must* conform to the new regs, up until then you can choose either the original or the amended

 

[Ryan_Moore]

I am not 100% sure, I have only been on a few rewires as a labourer, but you should take it upto the ceiling(or under the floorboard whichever way you are looking at it) and secure it there, knock a hole in the ceiling if it is difficult to acess, a plasterer is coming anyway.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Jonny up until the 31/12/11 you can only work to the BS 7671-2008, then after that all installations designed from the 01/01/2012 must be to the BS 7671-2011. For 6 months, I believe after this date, any installation designed before 01/01/2012 but installed up to 30/06/2012 can still be done to BS 7671-2008, that was how it was done in past years, and I'm sure it is the same.

The Widdler is about somewhere and I'm sure if I'm wrong he will tell us

 

[Amp David]

Thought it would be something like that, in which case they can be considered maintenance free and suitable for inaccessible joints now as it's only after 1/1/12 that installations *must* conform to the new regs, up until then you can choose either the original or the amended

That's what I thought too.

As regards the OP, the future isn't looking too bright, as he states he's newly qualified then suggests the use of chock blocks, insulation tape and plastering over!:hanged:

 

[Ryan_Moore]

Bit harsh there Amp Dave, I know there is a blank plate in my house that has 1 phase....and nothing else behind it, no idea where the neutral and earth have gone it is fine, once I qualify it will still be fine...probably.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Bit harsh there Amp Dave, I know there is a blank plate in my house that has 1 phase....and nothing else behind it, no idea where the neutral and earth have gone it is fine, once I qualify it will still be fine...probably.

Try not to use old terminology Ryan. Though it is to 3 phase Supplies we still refer, they are no longer termed phases but LINEs. So it is L1 L2 L3 and in a 230 volt mono-phase installation is LINE

It's just best to get into good habits early.

 

[Ryan_Moore]

Cheers Malcolm, side effect of learnin most of my DIY knowledge from my grandad who was a spark about 50 years ago

 

[malcolmsanford]

Cheers Malcolm, side effect of learnin most of my DIY knowledge from my grandad who was a spark about 50 years ago

I most likely know him lol

 

[telectrix]

I most likely know him lol

know him, malcolm????? you probably trained him.

 

[335-pilot]

Ok had a look at the job now and I have a plan. They have taken out a stud wall so there is a socket or two which need removing..Fortunately it's fairly new wiring and now has loads of wire now coiled into the ceiling.My plan is to run this ring cable under the floor and terminate in a seperate fuse from which I plan to run a spur. Thanks for the constructive answers guys and the others not so constructive, the whole point of my post was to get the best and most professional result. I'm not too proud to ask for advice or opinions I lack experience. if the knockers out there have a better idea how to get started do tell.Once again thanks for the advice, it's really appreciated.

 

[telectrix]

if you use pvc tape just for fastening cable to your rods for fishing you won't go far wrong. any joints, choc block or wagos, should not be taped, but enclosed in a joint box. happy days.

 

[DNS1]

Can't the disconnected cabling just remain in the wall?

If it's cut from the circuit and dead as a dodo is there anything wrong with plastering over it?

I've done a few replastering jobs before where I've found now defunct cables in a wall following a rewire.

 

[telectrix]

Can't the disconnected cabling just remain in the wall?

If it's cut from the circuit and dead as a dodo is there anything wrong with plastering over it?

I've done a few replastering jobs before where I've found now defunct cables in a wall following a rewire.

if i read the OP correctly, the cable is not "dead", it's a ring final with a couple of sockets removed. circuit still in use.

 

[DNS1]

if i read the OP correctly, the cable is not "dead", it's a ring final with a couple of sockets removed. circuit still in use.

Sorry, I meant, if the section supplying the sockets was cut out of the circuit completely and the ring reconnected elsewhere.

 

[335-pilot]

Telectrix you assume correctly. However all the cables will now be used and run under floor boards to a surface mounted fuse (13A?) which will sit in a cupboard, then a spur run along the safe zone to a new socket in the new wall.

 

[335-pilot]

Ah ok I see what your saying yes I guess that would be an option but the time consuming bit would be getting to the source of that bit of the ring, which I think is the consumer unit which is 3 rooms away and lots of furniture and floorboards to disturb.My question was really is it unthinkable to connect a ring up and plaster it over,which I guessed would be frowned upon but wanted ideas and options.

 

[JUD]

Telectrix you assume correctly. However all the cables will now be used and run under floor boards to a surface mounted fuse (13A?) which will sit in a cupboard, then a spur run along the safe zone to a new socket in the new wall.

If you're only spuring one socket off the ring then there's no need for FCU (fused connection unit) as long as the cable feeding the spur is the same size as the ring.

It's only if there will be more than one that you will need one. Have a look at Appendix 15, page 362 in BS 7671.

 

[335-pilot]

Hi Jud, thanks I am aware of that but the location of the spur will be such that it will probably feed a tv and subject to future additions so thought it would be prudent to ad a FCU at this point rather than later.

 

[Amp David]

If the sockets that have been removed were part of the RFC, then where is the other end of the RFC?

 

[335-pilot]

It looks like the socket I have to remove is the first socket in the RFC, the cables are long enough to move to a convenient location where I intend to replace the socket with a FCU then run a spur from that to the new wall.

 

[Amp David]

Ok, well why not then add the new sockets as part of the ring then, and do away with faffing about with an FCU. Better design IMO

 

[335-pilot]

cos I would need to add a socket or FCU to the "convenient location", which is in a cupboard (no use for a socket) and I am thinking a spur will be easier and cheaper to run.

 

[Amp David]

Ok then:seeya: