ASHP Query

[SRE]

One of our customers is having ashp problems - although maybe not what you'd expect. I managed ashp installations in 2005/6 and did the training last year again but they aren't for us. I have some questions can someone help?

It's a 9kw Danfoss with a buffer tank in a bungalow that's 114m2 with wet underfloor heating and good insulation installed 2.5 years ago in expectation of getting RHI.

Customer was quoted £400 for a service last year & didn't go ahead because of the cost. They wanted the vent installed in a different place to where it was actually installed but couldn't get the installer to visit prior to installation after the initial visit. Customer was always going to go up into the roof of the bungalow, told the installer, but now needs to move the ashp and vent 2m to accommodate stairs. She has gone back to the original installer who wants to charge £3,120 + vat to move it. Really?? Surely that's a price to get rid of the customer?

So my queries are:

£400 for a service - seems expensive to me.

£3,120 to move ashp, buffer & vent 2m - does that seem expensive?

Is Danfoss 9kw really big enough - not sure which model she's got herself in a not of a state about it and I don't want to push things at the minute. We couldn't get 9kw to work on this size house in 2005 but I know things have improved since then. She's warm enough but I'm not sure how efficient the system can be.

She has natural gas in the road, but not in the house - I haven't looked carefully at RHI but I understood that it didn't apply to ashp if natural gas was available - did I get that completely wrong?

Thanks

 

[Gavin A]

I'm not sure what you mean by the vent?

is it a split unit or monoblock - ie is there both an outdoor and indoor unit, or just outdoor?

ALso how awkward is it to access, if it needs machinery to lift it into position or something that'd put the price up.

but yes it seems expensive.

 

[BruceB]

Availablity of natural gas is not relevant to claiming RHI.

I hope it was properly commissioned and she got an MCS certificate.

 

[SRE]

Sorry for the delay getting back - just been checking with our customer. Ignore the vent comment, my fault I didn't clarify with her! It's a Villavent and completely separate. The ashp has an external compressor and an internal compressor and buffer tank. Access is easy, it's to be moved 2m (was discussed during initial survey but then ignored by original installation company) and no lifting equipment required. It's got an MCS certificate.

 

[Gavin A]

it'll need the gas extracting, repiping, vaccuum testing, and refilling the gas, which is specialist FGAS certified work, and the kit to do it costs a fortune - we've just bought most of it, and think I'm up to about £4k so far on kit, gas, cylinders etc. Either that or it needs sub contracting to a specialist FGAS fitter.

so that part of it's going to be fairly expensive, my suspicion is that the company is trying to cover the costs of the extraction kit from this one job, which isn't really on.

 

[Worcester]

Yep we bought all the kit a while ago as well and also got one of our guys f-gas certified. Good thing to know is that the usual charge out rate for f-gas certified engineers on air-con and refrigeration work around here is £800 / day , so we will get our investment back...

It's not as simple as a quick look under the hood

 

[solarsavings]

Did my f-gas where Gorden's guy did and bought some on my kit there. I don't think the total was anywhere near 4g but it was about 18months ago and I could be wrong.

 

[jason121]

Yep we bought all the kit a while ago as well and also got one of our guys f-gas certified. Good thing to know is that the usual charge out rate for f-gas certified engineers on air-con and refrigeration work around here is £800 / day , so we will get our investment back...

It's not as simple as a quick look under the hood

Fridge guys i work with (40hp compressors) blast chillers £35.00 hr.

 

[jason121]

Yep we bought all the kit a while ago as well and also got one of our guys f-gas certified. Good thing to know is that the usual charge out rate for f-gas certified engineers on air-con and refrigeration work around here is £800 / day , so we will get our investment back...

It's not as simple as a quick look under the hood

I find that hard to believe

 

[Gavin A]

Did my f-gas where Gorden's guy did and bought some on my kit there. I don't think the total was anywhere near 4g but it was about 18months ago and I could be wrong.

that probably does include the F-Gas course costs tbh, it's probably more like 2.5k for the kit and stock of the gas, bottle hire etc

It'll be another good few hundred quid for the kit to extract the gas from the circuits as well though, which I've not forked out for yet, so that'll take it up to around the £4k mark including the course, plus the staff time for actually attending the course etc

It seems to not be cheap anyway.

 

[The Solar King]

Do you think we will see more split systems?

 

[Worcester]

Yep, especially when all those monoblocs that they couldn't be bothered to put gycol in start freezing up in winter...

 

[jason121]

hats going on with tis post

 

[jason121]

Yep, especially when all those monoblocs that they couldn't be bothered to put gycol in start freezing up in winter...

Have you done any Samsung splits yet Mr Worcester

 

[solarsavings]

that probably does include the F-Gas course costs tbh, it's probably more like 2.5k for the kit and stock of the gas, bottle hire etc

It'll be another good few hundred quid for the kit to extract the gas from the circuits as well though, which I've not forked out for yet, so that'll take it up to around the £4k mark including the course, plus the staff time for actually attending the course etc

It seems to not be cheap anyway.

I've checked this evening and I did the f-gas cat 1 course just over two years ago (where does the time go ) Including training/accommodation and tools required except ofn cost over 4g wtf! And of course a week away not earning.

I doubt Worcester's fitted a split samsung to water as the UK distributer only holds very few in stock and they cost about £1200 more than the equivalent mono.

 

[Worcester]

Have you done any Samsung splits yet Mr Worcester

Hi Jason, not yet with Samsung, we've used others and find installing splits quite straightforward. Often easier than mono's as the hyrdonics unit is more flexibly positioned than having to run heating pipework outside. All of our systems to date have been high end / high specification systems, sometimes cascaded, and frequently involve the complete refurbishment of all aspects of the heating and DHW system. Most of our clients are up at the 17-20kW (or greater) heat load requirement even with all the energy efficiency measures installed. So when you get down below 3° we frequently will do a hybrid system so as keep the HP working at it's higher CoP's.

(This is turning into the Green Room already )

 

[jason121]

Just read Panasonic have a 16kw TCAP on the market.

 

[jason121]

Hi Jason, not yet with Samsung, we've used others and find installing splits quite straightforward. Often easier than mono's as the hyrdonics unit is more flexibly positioned than having to run heating pipework outside. All of our systems to date have been high end / high specification systems, sometimes cascaded, and frequently involve the complete refurbishment of all aspects of the heating and DHW system. Most of our clients are up at the 17-20kW (or greater) heat load requirement even with all the energy efficiency measures installed. So when you get down below 3° we frequently will do a hybrid system so as keep the HP working at it's higher CoP's.

(This is turning into the Green Room already )

You will have to post some pictures, would like to see the installation

 

[Marvo]

If you work on a refrigeration system is it necessary to use a recovery unit? Can't you just pump the gas down out of the system into the condensing unit and close service valves? This is how many of the new units are delivered with pre-charge so surely it would be compliant for a relocation and would still allow the pipework and indoor unit to be vacuum tested.

 

[Worcester]

If you work on a refrigeration system is it necessary to use a recovery unit? Can't you just pump the gas down out of the system into the condensing unit and close service valves? This is how many of the new units are delivered with pre-charge so surely it would be compliant for a relocation and would still allow the pipework and indoor unit to be vacuum tested.

Yes, No, No.

The f-gas regulations are very strict.

 

[solarsavings]

Well I think you can pump down and move the unit provided you know there is no more refrigerant in the unit than it came with.(mi's will tell you) If there is, then you have to recover it.

 

[Gavin A]

anyone know if it's allowed under MCS to put the heat pump control unit in a locked box and not give the client the key?

'the heat pump's not heating the house properly, can we not just turn it up to 55 degrees?'

turned out to be that the unit had magically turned itself onto quiet mode, so was running at half output.

 

[Worcester]

You mean like disconnecting the thermostat in the hall that the missus keeps turning up and down and instantly feels warmer when she's done it ? (Could NEVER admit to configuring our house that way )

At least most system logs tell you what was done and when.

Call out charges in the contract helps, where logs indicate what has been changed..

 

[SRE]

Thanks guys for all the posts. So although it's an expensive job to do, I'm picking up that £3,100 is still quite expensive?? I'm really not aware of anyone with any expertise in our area that I could recommend to our customer. What's the best forward for her? She's really not happy using the original company but I'm not sure what her alternative is?

 

[jason121]

All you need is a good air conditioning firm to move the outside unit. There will remove gas, re braze pipe vac out and fill up. A day at most. Maybe need plumbing to check heating system works ok

 

[SRE]

That won't impact on MCS certificate will it? We have a really good air con company locally who might be interested. I've tried not to get too involved in it but we're red hot on customer care which sometimes opens us up to problems we don't really want to get involved in .

The original installers haven't installed the pipework properly, kinks in the pipe, 3 compression joints in 600mm, nick in another pipe, concrete/tiles cracked where the underfloor heating has gone in - limestone floor has had to be lifted to re-pipe she's really upset about it all - it was supposed to be their dream home for retirement.

 

[jason121]

I doubt it will. Might mess the warranty up with original installer. Do they have there MCS certificate

 

[SRE]

Yes they have the MCS - I think the ashp is out of installer warranty anyway, it was installed 2 1/2 years ago.

 

[jason121]

I would use your air con guy to move it.