Can you just tidy my panel up a bit!!!!

[GMES]

Got asked if I could just tidy up a customers panel up a bit, he said his previous guy used to be able to get the Machine running all the time but wasn't the tidiest of guys.

within 2 minutes of looking at this mess I had cost the customer quite a lot of money.

The isolator you see does not work, so the isolator get switched on with a spanner or grips then the door is closed
All the terminals are exposed to touch, due to above line, so obviously can't be isolated before opening the door
terminal covers missing anyway as you can see
wires just thrown from one contactor to another, without taking it through the trunking
Loads of Ip issues due to holes all over the panel
Plus many many more issues

 

[Robotstar5]

Seen a few like that over the years, usually no drawings either.



The machine will be down quite a while sorting that out, is it worth building a new panel and swapping in a few hours?, I've done it a couple of times as it's cheaper from a production loss view.

 

[GMES]

Seen a few like that over the years, usually no drawings either.

View attachment 26251

The machine will be down quite a while sorting that out, is it worth building a new panel and swapping in a few hours?, I've done it a couple of times as it's cheaper from a production loss view.

The problem is there are at least another 7 in the same state some are even worse, they are a customer of so I have inherited these little beauties. I think it is going to become a very long project for me.

 

[GMES]

Also Rob what Annoys me, is it is not hard to do it right the 1st time around correctly.

 

[telectrix]

well, you've done the 3 day course. it's just like wiring a plug, only a few more wires. oh, i forgot, you got the plug wiring wrong, walnut!

 

[GMES]

And the plugtop came with a diagram and I still got it wrong.
No drawings with the Panels argghh

 

[Robotstar5]

Also Rob what Annoys me, is it is not hard to do it right the 1st time around correctly.

It probably was, but then the drawings got lost and the next sparky has to pull out the cables to trace them, doesn't have time to put them back as he's needed on another job 10 minutes ago.
It's a downward spiral then :sad3:

 

[telectrix]

red to red, yellow to yellow, blue to bits.

 

[GMES]

red to red, yellow to yellow, blue to bits.

Cheers Dad, I know I am safe with you sitting on my shoulder like a guardian angel.

 

[Robotstar5]

Most of the companies I've worked for had the panels professionally built complete with drawings, some even provide a back-up on CD so you can reprint any lost/damaged pages or I've designed and built them myself, although the drawings weren't up to much as I struggled to use Eplan!.

One company I worked for had a habit of buying used machines usually with no drawings and countless mods ending in a "rats nest" panel, I left after 3 months.

 

[Diddy]

GMES you have not got time to be on here best you get that lot sorted before lunch and get on with the other 7....work late until 6pm and the client expects all done and tucked up before you go.

 

[GMES]

Diddy they are a regular customer of mine now and are spending a lot of money with me on Installation work and Improvement projects.
The panel are just the latest project that they have added to my long list of work.
@Robostar that is exactly it they have bought several machines over the years and quite a few have come from Germany so a lot of the legends/labels buttons etc are all in German, just to add to the challenge.

 

[telectrix]

i speak fluent german.... achtung spitfire.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Diddy they are a regular customer of mine now and are spending a lot of money with me on Installation work and Improvement projects.
The panel are just the latest project that they have added to my long list of work.
@Robostar that is exactly it they have bought several machines over the years and quite a few have come from Germany so a lot of the legends/labels buttons etc are all in German, just to add to the challenge.

Das ist das Problem mit euch jungen Burschen - Sie habe zu glauben, dass alles einfach sein gebracht!

Alle loben unser Führer Dan!!!

 

[sammyshooter]

Build a new panel and swap it for one. Then repair that nackered panel and swap it for 2, lather rinse repeat as necessary until it's safe, submit your invoice and go and spunk it all in the boozer.

 

[Geordie Spark]

i speak fluent german.... achtung spitfire.

Is that the aircraft or the beer??

 

[telectrix]

if it was the beer, it'd be "mmmmm spitfire"

 

[Geordie Spark]

if it was the beer, it'd be "mmmmm spitfire"

Agreed!! ......... It is a nice drink and shoots Creamflow down in flames.

Anyway; what are you doing here - haven't you got a pub to go to??

 

[shanky887614]

Agreed!! ......... It is a nice drink and shoots Creamflow down in flames.

Anyway; what are you doing here - haven't you got a pub to go to??

i wouldnt be suprised if he was in pub on tapalk etc

 

[Geordie Spark]

i wouldnt be suprised if he was in pub on tapalk etc

I didn't think of that!!

 

[PEG]

Got asked if I could just tidy up a customers panel up a bit, he said his previous guy used to be able to get the Machine running all the time but wasn't the tidiest of guys.

within 2 minutes of looking at this mess I had cost the customer quite a lot of money.

The isolator you see does not work, so the isolator get switched on with a spanner or grips then the door is closed
All the terminals are exposed to touch, due to above line, so obviously can't be isolated before opening the door
terminal covers missing anyway as you can see
wires just thrown from one contactor to another, without taking it through the trunking
Loads of Ip issues due to holes all over the panel
Plus many many more issues


View attachment 26248View attachment 26247View attachment 26249View attachment 26250

...They are clean,not bulging,and mainly functioning....looks like nice work,to me. Maybe you are feeling embarrassed about the hideous impending invoice due :coolgleamA: ...seriously,the German stuff i have worked on was superior to others,quality components and straight-forward nomenclature,Gottwald and Liebherr gear being top-drawer. Also,on second-hand equipment,panels sometimes come with neatly fitted and wired timers,transformers etc,which match others in panel,but were for completely different machines,not associated with the newly arrived plant... It's just like finding your way round Uzbekistan using a Uzbekistani A to Z,if you have drawings...if not,it's pac-man down every road! Happy billing fella :stooge_curly:

 

[GMES]

Yep Tel's got his Ipad now so he can just prop the bar up all day and still stay involved in the forum.

 

[CockneyReject]

Sorry mate I would of liked to of been neater but you know what it's like, they lost the drawings, everytime I got near the thing it was on callout at stupid o'clock in the morning so I just wanted to get done and go home and after a while I just stopped caring knowing fine well I'd made a fortune roughing it in and some other mug would come along and tidy it up sooner or later



Seriously though, don't you just love machine panels they are always a mix and match rats nest that very rarely have drawings that make any sense, looks like your going to be a busy chimp if they are wanting them all redone, tidied up and fully documented, on the bright side though you'll be minted off the back of this customer

 

[Bobster]

Probably quicker and easier to build new panels and rip those out.

 

[jimjimjim]

Just think, that was once brand new, with all the lidding on, everything on the din rail and all the MPCBs the same breed, shiny and new.........and then the maintenance brigade got to it.

Jim

 

[Robotstar5]

@Robostar that is exactly it they have bought several machines over the years and quite a few have come from Germany so a lot of the legends/labels buttons etc are all in German, just to add to the challenge.

With some of the German panels I've worked on you have to have drawings as they don't use cable markers. Changing a safety relay with 20 brown wires on it becomes a challenge, I got into the habit of slipping on markers as I disconnected each wire to ID the terminal it came from, made life a lot easier than trying to juggle the new relay next to the old one while swapping wires one by one.

 

[shanky887614]

With some of the German panels I've worked on you have to have drawings as they don't use cable markers. Changing a safety relay with 20 brown wires on it becomes a challenge, I got into the habit of slipping on markers as I disconnected each wire to ID the terminal it came from, made life a lot easier than trying to juggle the new relay next to the old one while swapping wires one by one.

if you think some german panels are bad you will weap at the site of some door access/bms panels.

no terminals there, everything straight onto controllers with cables all over the place.

 

[Rockingit]

With some of the German panels I've worked on you have to have drawings as they don't use cable markers. Changing a safety relay with 20 brown wires on it becomes a challenge, I got into the habit of slipping on markers as I disconnected each wire to ID the terminal it came from, made life a lot easier than trying to juggle the new relay next to the old one while swapping wires one by one.

Yep, or tape etc. And camera phones are a god send for this, too - take a pic before you start to refer back to later!!

 

[Robotstar5]

if you think some german panels are bad you will weap at the site of some door access panels.

no terminals there, everything straight onto controllers with cables all over the place.

Sounds like a particular brand of roller door controllers we had, all the multicores straight into cage clamp terminals on the PCB, but at least they were numbered.

 

[Engineer54]

I can tell just by looking at that control panel that several modifications have been made to the original panel wiring, so any drawings within the panel would be of little use unless any changes have been incorporated. Going by the state of those panels, i'd hazard an educated guess that even if there were drawings, the person responsible for leaving a panel in that sort of state, won't be too bothered about updating any drawings!! ....lol!!

 

[1stfix2ndfix]

Can I be you apprentice on this GMES. Can u talk me through what you end up doing and why you've done it maybee with pictures. It's a big ask but I you don't ask you don't get. It looks interesting but I doubt I'll ever get to come across it. Fingers crossed

 

[netblindpaul]

Just make sure that if you build a new panel, or do any work on the panel, in the same way that you "must" design and construct the rewire or modifications of the wiring in a house to the current version of BS7671, that the control system for the machine is designed and constructed, modifications or new, to the current versions of the relevant standards, else if something goes wrong, you will end up on the wrong end of an HM HSE investigation.
By the way, if you don't have copies of the standards, then again you would find HM HSE quite forthright in their opinions from my meetings with them.

 

[Bobster]

Just make sure that if you build a new panel, or do any work on the panel, in the same way that you "must" design and construct the rewire or modifications of the wiring in a house to the current version of BS7671, that the control system for the machine is designed and constructed, modifications or new, to the current versions of the relevant standards, else if something goes wrong, you will end up on the wrong end of an HM HSE investigation.
By the way, if you don't have copies of the standards, then again you would find HM HSE quite forthright in their opinions from my meetings with them.

I think you mean BS EN 60204.

If anything, nothing within the panel will fall under BS 7671

 

[Richard Burns]

I think you mean BS EN 60204.

If anything, nothing within the panel will fall under BS 7671

Read the post again?

 

[Bobster]

Read the post again?

Yep another reason I shouldn't skim read posts.

 

[Besoeker]

Also Rob what Annoys me, is it is not hard to do it right the 1st time around correctly.

It looks as if it might have been done right the first time.
Trunking, terminals, wire numbers, an earth bar....
It looks to me like it has been extensively modified/bodged over probably a period of years.

 

[netblindpaul]

I think you mean BS EN 60204.

If anything, nothing within the panel will fall under BS 7671

As GMES has suggested, my post did not refer to 7671, however, 60204 is not the end of it either, there are possibly a dozen other standards, and some statute laws that must be met also.

 

[Silly Sausage]

As GMES has suggested, my post did not refer to 7671, however, 60204 is not the end of it either, there are possibly a dozen other standards, and some statute laws that must be met also.

Fix the broken bits, a few extra bits of trunking, stretch the wires in, test, it passes.

 

[netblindpaul]

Fix the broken bits, a few extra bits of trunking, stretch the wires in, test, it passes.

Passes what?
Or are you taking the mick out of me?

 

[GMES]

Fix the broken bits, a few extra bits of trunking, stretch the wires in, test, it passes.

Think that may be it to be honest Archy. The panel works perfectly well, my 1st main job is to replace the isolator, then as you say tidy wiring up , get some lidding, hoover out .