Interesting three way conversion to two way and swap for time lag.

[The Ghost]

If your bored or like a challenge I thought (maybe wrongly) this might be interesting to trainees and maybe others. As the title convert three way switching to two way (Sw 2 + 3)

danlers time lag (Master and slave) using switch 2 and 3. Assume you cannot find the junction box. Can it be done? Note we have L in at switch 1, no accessible switch return. I included a couple of photos to give the ---- drawing some context. The switch return (green) is pure conjecture on my part, but it must be something along those lines. There is no switch return wire at any switch.

 

[The Ghost]

Oh sorry the first picture was meant to be intermediate switch like this:

 

[buzzlightyear]

the plan you are using will not work ,

 

[The Ghost]

will not work

You've given the game away. This is the existing wiring not the plan. The plan is what to do with it to get to Master and Slave on 1 and 2. I will tell you what I actually did before too long.

 

[buzzlightyear]

was that how it was wired ? and if saw you have two opposing current .switch 3 to switch 1.!

 

[telectrix]

question is... do to need to run the cable in mid-air over the neighbour's garden? if so to need a catenary wire as well as them strappers.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Looks like a standard 2-way to me. Feed in and feed out in the common of Sw1, strappers through intermediate switch and yellow from Sw3 is the SL to the light. If your getting rid of Sw1 you could connect the live through to sw2 and connect the SL and L through in parallel to switch 3. Or am I missing something?

 

[The Ghost]

Sorry did not label it but from the photos and diagram you should see the live comes into sw 1 common-to either L1 or L2 on red cables to the intermediate L1 and L2 (Sw 2) correspondingly (all belled out by the way) then from the intermediate top, to the three core R-Y-B two way switch (Sw 3) again belled out from intermediate L1 L2 top to L1 L2 on sw 3 hope that's clear. There is no switch return that I can make out. Or am I missing something?

 

[The Ghost]

Bear in mind the junction box is assumed as there is no other way the lights can switch on which they do by the way. I have had no sight of the junction box, could be in the wall joined to old MICC (quite common in this building) or JB in loft 20 foot up with a 2 foot by 2 foot hatch leading to a sargasso sea of cables dust an inch thick and billions of data cables just thrown over the loft and so on.

 

[Flanders]

Where is the light in your drawing , is the yellow cable the switch wire to the light via your hidden junction box?

 

[The Ghost]

was that how it was wired

The JB is just conjecture I could not bell out those wires conclusively. So no not necessarily.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Where is the light in your drawing , is the yellow cable the switch wire to the light via your hidden junction box?

That was my assumption.

 

[The Ghost]

Where is the light in your drawing

There are two lights on the stairs. If the yellow cable is the switch return where does the common go to at switch 1 if not the yellow cable at switch 3?

 

[Leesparkykent]

There are two lights on the stairs. If the yellow cable is the switch return where does the common go to at switch 1 if not the yellow cable at switch 3?

sw 1 common perm live, strippers through to int, other side of int to junction box, strappers connected to sw3 and Yellow from common sw 3 is SL to lights.

 

[The Ghost]

Feed in and feed out in the common

Eh? of switch 1 there is only 1 L feed into sw 1 there is no feed out and the rest of the cables look like an ordinary three way switching arrangement apart from on thing, there is no visible sw. return.

 

[Leesparkykent]

sw 1 common perm live, strippers through to int, other side of int to junction box, strapped connected to sw3 and Yellow from common sw 3 is SL to lights.

 

[The Ghost]

Yellow from common sw 3 is SL to lights.

Agreed, now you can't (for the sake of argument and practicalities) get to the junction box. So I want to convert this to two way master and slave time lag switch. So usually L and Sw return to master and use two of the strappers for the slave. But the L is at switch one which is being gotten rid of. The answer is a nothing to do with this problem I might add. It is just a mind bender for trainees really, and hopefully they might think it can't be done will have to do something else which I did.

 

[The Ghost]

@Leesparkykent you are missing the two wires in sw 1, look at the grid switch with a borrowed live from the adjacent grid switch you can see two wires in the common.

 

[buzzlightyear]

what a head scratcher, now let me think about it ,not the wiser .

 

[Leesparkykent]

Eh? of switch 1 there is only 1 L feed into sw 1 there is no feed out and the rest of the cables look like an ordinary three way switching arrangement apart from on thing, there is no visible sw. return.

looks like two reds in common to me.

 

[buzzlightyear]

I think I have got it .its gone now.

 

[The Ghost]

Where is the light in your drawing

Just assume there is a light and the L and N go to it. Just concerned with the three way lighting and how it pops the sw. return out.

 

[Leesparkykent]

@Leesparkykent you are missing the two wires in sw 1, look at the grid switch with a borrowed live from the adjacent grid switch you can see two wires in the common.

Yeah I see that, that's where it's picking its feed up from.

 

[The Ghost]

looks like two reds in common to me

Yep that's what I said, so one is the L what do you think the other one is?

 

[The Ghost]

So any trainees out there care to chime in?

 

[buzzlightyear]

So any trainees out there care to chime in?

you could do with a old timer on this one .

 

[The Ghost]

you could do with a old timer

Nah the problem is sorted just thought I'd throw it out there for a bit of light entertainment. Lets just say it's thinking outside the box, or cutting the gordian knot. I just thought it might be good for trainees to have a think about as it's the sort of thing we come across all the time and have to think it through.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Nah the problem is sorted just thought I'd throw it out there for a bit of light entertainment. Lets just say it's thinking outside the box, or cutting the gordian knot.

and I just put the pop corn in the mic/wave .

 

[The Ghost]

I assume it is something like this.

 

[Leesparkykent]

View attachment 42377 I assume it is something like this.

That would of never worked.

 

[buzzlightyear]

I assume it is something like this.

That would of never worked

try again ,Vort.

 

[The Ghost]

Well maybe not.

Ok if I go with the idea the yellow is the sw. return which was my first thought. Where does the mystery wire go? Maybe it is another feed to another light. But anyway the thing is, is it possible to do away with the first switch and run a master/slave time lag. And by the way at the light fitting it is a red cable as the sw. return. I know this is all a bit silly as I said just a bit of fun.

 

[buzzlightyear]

keep trying ,Vort ,it will come to you ,god loves a trier .

 

[AJshep]

It's late and I've had a few birthday beers tonight, but my thoughts are to run 2 masters rather than master and a slave.

Doesn't look like you have enough wires otherwise.

Does the live out (red) go to an Em light ?

 

[The Ghost]

Does the live out (red) go to an Em light

Sw 1 picks up its L from the adjacent grid switch, which is a fish key switch for the emergency lights with a separate supply to the emergency lights on the same circuit. If you switch off the fish key switch emergencies and lights on stairs go out together. Any yes it is a bit late to think this through.

 

[The Ghost]

2 masters rather than master and a slave

In order to run anything you would have to have a live and switch return. If I do away with sw. 1 there will be no live at sw. 2 and sw. 3. Anyway I had hoped some trainees would seize on this and lead the way. Shame they have not. I really don't want to make everything too obvious.

 

[The Ghost]

keep trying

Bit of input here @buzzlightyear would be appreciated. Give it to me baby.

 

[Wilko]

I've only got one thing to say ... no, not even one ...

 

[The Ghost]

Anyway I'm done for today can't even spell correctly. Or think, time for a steel bottom I'd say.

 

[The Ghost]

Anyway the two way switching is not the issue and is a complete red herring which I did not want to say but there I've blurted it out now as I'm getting tired. First off the whole of the two way switching would be disposed of. For a master and slave or master and master you only need two cables. Just a clue to the clueless.

 

[The Ghost]

Doesn't look like you have enough wires otherwise.

I think that is the best analysis so far.

 

[AJshep]

If your getting rid of switch 1 you could just join the lives through or Wago to give you a Perm live switch 2.
Although i didnt go into detail i meant to say It's easy enough to get a Perm L and Switch wire at switch 2&3 with what you have.

Old skool time lag switch wiring ?

## edit just saw you posted.

 

[The Ghost]

Perm live switch 2

Agreed, so make that the master. Now I have two wires going up to switch 3. And need to find the sw. return.

 

[AJshep]

The yellow must be the switch return else it wouldn't have worked originally
so switch 3 will have yellow in L1 with the blue strapper (that gives you a switch L at switch 2)

At switch 2 put the other strapper in with the Perm live ( this gives a perm live back to switch 3.

Your end up with a spare unused strapper at switch 2 from switch 1.

Switch 2 Perm L and Switch Live
Switch 3 perm L and Switch Live
2 master time lags, but I don't believe your be able to use a master and a slave as dont they use signal wires ( I haven't looked at specs) ?

 

[The Ghost]

If I remove the L at sw. 1 the circuit is completely dead. Sw. 3 yellow in common may (sensibly) be the switch return. What then is the other red in sw. 1 common? As I say we do not really have to worry about the two way/intermediate switching as it would be redundant. Master requires L and sw. return. Slave requires L and signal return to master (two wires) If I use switch 3 I still need a L and Sw. return. I am still thinking about your proposal with the way you say to do it. But at the moment it's like that film where the chalice in the palace is the lotion with the potion etc. (Danny Kaye I think)

 

[Leesparkykent]

How are we supposed to know where it goes? For all we know it goes to feed another switch/light. The way I see it is with the limited description of how it's connected and an educated guess you don't have enough cores to wire it as master and Slave but standard time lag switches would be the sensible thing to of installed as it would of been as simple as connecting the Lines and switch lines in parralel across th switches. You say you've got it working master and slave...did you have a magic wand or are we missing the obvious? From your posts I gather it's something to do with the red with the question mark in your diagram? I don't know how we are expected to have a scooby doo where it goes?

 

[PEG]

I've missed most of this,as i had to transport a goat,a fox and a chicken,to an island,using a boat and specific guidelines...

 

[buzzlightyear]

he has well get a dart and throws it against a wall to see where it lands.

 

[The Ghost]

Ok just to stop all speculation I installed sensor lights and arranged a permanent live and blanked off all switches. Sorry if you found this frustrating. As I intimated you would get to the point that it can't be done as you do not have enough cables and you would have to think of something else. I did not want to say this as I thought maybe some trainees would try to work it out. But there you go. Oh and I did not say I got it working with master and slave. I just said I got it working and thought outside the box. I was trying not to say what I did do. Anyway there is no way to get the live up to sw. 2 and 3 with returns for both as there are not enough cables. Hence screw all the above just fit sensors. Unless you want to go and find the mythical junction box which believe me you would not want to given the possible location and circumstances.

 

[Wilko]

Master and Slavery was made illegal in 1833 so I always thought this was a trick question.
Do we get some free Wagos for participating?