Discuss Is it right?? - Police officer still working for police and doing electrical and plumbing work in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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sparksburnout

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Got a call from a local builder this week, asking if I could come and "have a look at a job". Upon asking what it was he said electrics in a new extension. So, as it was on my way home I called in for a butchers. Turns out it has already been done and he just want's "a sparky to issue a cert". I had a quick look round and straight away noticed 3 cables dropping out the ceiling clipped down the wall and through to the outside about a metre from the floor, no internal accessories or anything. I asked him what they were for and he said "oh the customer wants some low level bulkheads down the outside of the wall. So I asked him who had wired it up and he said XXXXX. now, this is about the 6th time i've been dragged round to a "job" like this and I just thought "right, blow this", so I said to the builder, "this job looks like a load of c**p mate so no I am not interested in "giving you a cert" and by the way that will cost you £40 for a call out, to which he told me to *** off. So, I kind of mentioned that I was on pretty good pints in the local terms with the local BCO (true) and that it might slip one evening, to which he reached into his grubby pocket and shoved 2 £20's into my hand. Now, on further digging about, I have discovered that the "sparky" involved is a still working COPPER who has done electrical, plumbing and god knows what other "courses" in the last 2 years of his service before retirement at the grand old age of 55. Never has my gob been so smacked, is it right??
 
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westward10

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What Certs do you give people, I never get involved with jobs like this but what do you mean when you say is it right.
 
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sparksburnout

sparksburnout

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What Certs do you give people, I never get involved with jobs like this but what do you mean when you say is it right.
He wanted it notified to building control, "third party certification" I believe it is called. What I mean by "is it right" was the fact that a copper, in full employment as such, is moonlighting doing this sort of thing.
 

Murdoch

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He wanted it notified to building control, "third party certification" I believe it is called. What I mean by "is it right" was the fact that a copper, in full employment as such, is moonlighting doing this sort of thing.
As the Police can retire at 55, they, like almost all firemen, get ready for a "career" after they finish in the force......... but fireman do it from day 1.

I know as one of my neighbours gets paid to snooze all night at the fire station, then works at his 2nd job during the day.......
 

westward10

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He wanted it notified to building control, "third party certification" I believe it is called. What I mean by "is it right" was the fact that a copper, in full employment as such, is moonlighting doing this sort of thing.
Got you now.
 
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sparksburnout

sparksburnout

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As the Police can retire at 55, they, like almost all firemen, get ready for a "career" after they finish in the force......... but fireman do it from day 1.

I know as one of my neighbours gets paid to snooze all night at the fire station, then works at his 2nd job during the day.......
Well that's cos of all those metal CU's now.......
 

FatAlan

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Police pension rules changed about 10 years ago but with the old police pension scheme officers can retire after 30 years on full pension. Some officers who joined as cadets at the age of 19 retired at 49. Not the case now. New officers have to work longer, pay more and get less of a pension. Nothing to stop a police officer training in his spare time. If they are running a business they have to declare it to their relevant police service in case there is a conflict of interest. Sounds like whatever course he may or may not have done didn't teach him much. The builder who offered you £20.00 might like to read up on the Bribery Act!
 

happyhippydad

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He wanted it notified to building control, "third party certification" I believe it is called. What I mean by "is it right" was the fact that a copper, in full employment as such, is moonlighting doing this sort of thing.
I think it is perfectly acceptable for a policeman to have another job. I expect the police force that he is with will have a policy on 'secondary employment' and if he has completed the paperwork and his secondary employment does not impact on his abilities to do his primary job (policeman) properly then it's fine. This is my experience of other public sector jobs anyway.
 

FatAlan

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I thought with 3rd party certification the competent person had to be notified prior to the work being started?
 

Richard Burns

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I thought with 3rd party certification the competent person had to be notified prior to the work being started?
A competent electrician, who is registered as a third party certifier, must be informed prior to work starting and they need to inspect and test as required, based on the competence of the person installing, and then provide an EICR after completion and file this with their self certification scheme.
 

FatAlan

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So is there a system for additional registration of 3rd party certifiers on top of them just being registered on a competent persons scheme?
 

Taylortwocities

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Yes, but not all of the CPS offer it, and of those who do, not many sparks have taken up the (£ more) option!
 
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sparksburnout

sparksburnout

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I think it is perfectly acceptable for a policeman to have another job. I expect the police force that he is with will have a policy on 'secondary employment' and if he has completed the paperwork and his secondary employment does not impact on his abilities to do his primary job (policeman) properly then it's fine. This is my experience of other public sector jobs anyway.
So you think it is OK for a guy in a perfectly well paid job with a very good pension to be moonlighting, probably undercutting other sparks who are trying to make a living as their sole occupation? How would you feel if you lost a job to some part time fly-by-night who is just doing it for beer money, and not very well at that?? Sorry matey I don't think it's perfectly acceptable at all.
 
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sparksburnout

sparksburnout

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I thought with 3rd party certification the competent person had to be notified prior to the work being started?
Yes he does, that's part of my point. This goons just doing it with a couldn't care less attitude, and hes a copper!!!
 
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happyhippydad

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So you think it is OK for a guy in a perfectly well paid job with a very good pension to be moonlighting, probably undercutting other sparks who are trying to make a living as their sole occupation? How would you feel if you lost a job to some part time fly-by-night who is just doing it for beer money, and not very well at that?? Sorry matey I don't think it's perfectly acceptable at all.
It sounds like you may have already made up your mind. Plus you do seem to have read a bit into my post that wasn't there.

If his force have a policy on secondary employment and he has let them know then it is not moonlighting.

If a policeman has undertaken the relevant courses and has the relevant experience to do the work and may even be registered with a scheme then 'yes', perfectly acceptable.

You have asked the question is it ok for 'a' policeman to do this, you didn't say this particular policeman. It just sounds like you are cross at seeing bad work by someone which is fair enough but (taking the emphasis away from this particular case, and answering your question) just because you have one job does not mean you cannot have another as long as you meet the requirements for doing that other job. I find it makes life far more interesting having 2 different jobs.

Anyway, like I said, I can see you're cross. Perhaps try and turn it to your advantage and join Stroma's third party certification scheme, I wouldn't personally but it may work for you.
 

FatAlan

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The issue is that he is a naff electrician (in your experienced opinion) an not what else he happens to do with his life. As a professional you have done your duty as a professional and told him to get lost. Unfortunately there are idiots in all walks of life. Sounds like he and his builder don't actually know the correct procedure re 3rd party notification?
 

Davisonp

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I thought with 3rd party certification the competent person had to be notified prior to the work being started?
Third party certification schemes for domestic electrical work
in England
Chief Engineer Geoff Cronshaw provides clarity on the new Part P third party
certification schemes introduced in April this year, and answers some
frequently asked questions.
New Part P third party certification schemes for electrical installation work in dwellings were
introduced in England on 6th April this year. The bodies that have been authorised to
operate schemes are listed on the DCLG website at www.gov.uk/third-party-certificationschemes-
for-domestic-electrical-work.
A person registered with one of the schemes will be able to check domestic electrical work
undertaken by installers who are not registered with a Part P competent person selfcertification
scheme (typically DIY work) and certify that the work is compliant with the
Building Regulations. Before 6th April, only building control bodies (usually local authorities)
could certify work by non-registered installers.
Overview
*******
See attached doc for full article
 

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Midwest

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So you think it is OK for a guy in a perfectly well paid job with a very good pension to be moonlighting, probably undercutting other sparks who are trying to make a living as their sole occupation? How would you feel if you lost a job to some part time fly-by-night who is just doing it for beer money, and not very well at that?? Sorry matey I don't think it's perfectly acceptable at all.
As said the police officer in question, should have permission to carry out secondary employment, documenting to his employers exactly the extent of the employment and details of working hours etc. Certain jobs are not allowed, being an electrician is not one of them. If he is still employed as a police officer, he would probably not be in receipt of a pension, unless he wants to pay lots of tax!

Perhaps he is carry out such work, to provide experience for when he does retire form the police, to take on a full time employment as an electrician.

If you believe his work is substandard, and can evidence that and you feel so strongly about it, you could report him to the local police authority highlighting his substandard workmanship. Police misconduct is a disciplinary offence, even off duty, something which would be highlighted in his permission to work.

I only note from your OP, the poor standards specifically refer to the cables not being in safe zones? With certain criteria, cables can be installed on reverse of walls with no accessories, reg 522.6.202.
 
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sparksburnout

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I think I might be banging the wrong drum here, judging from the responses. I am quite aware that the regulations regarding safe zones are applicable to the "other side" if the wall in question meets the requirements, but an outside wall on a new extension is pretty unlikely to do so, unless the builder is incompetent as well. I was rather suggesting that the person in question was already in a well paid and very well pensioned job and that the nature of his "dabbling" now and again is unlikely to result in him being very professional, as demonstrated, and that he is probably doing a full time sparky, who is maybe struggling to make a go of things, out of work. I have no intention of reporting him or anything of the sort, I just think, as my thread title suggested, that it is "not right", probably more morally than anything else. Nobody seems to have taken up the point that if they had been undercut by a guy like this, whether he is a copper, banker or anyone else on shift work, they should probably stick to that and work in a bar if they want a bit of extra dollar. Personally I think that everything that goes with being properly self-employed and maintaining a good standard of professionalism, along with all the things that go with it, is well enough to keep most people fully occupied. I would suggest that most people who are operating in this "on the side"manner are not only short cutting the job but probably short cutting many of their other obligations as well, including their tax, and they are certainly very unlikely to be part of a registered scheme. Regarding the 3rd part certification aspect I personally would not touch it with a barge-pole.
 

KennyKen

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The copper sounds like a Boil in the Bag. Obviously doesn't give a **** about his word of mouth reputation. I'm guessing prospective customers will soon hear about this fella.
 

Midwest

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I was rather suggesting that the person in question was already in a well paid and very well pensioned job and that the nature of his "dabbling" now and again is unlikely to result in him being very professional, as demonstrated, and that he is probably doing a full time sparky, who is maybe struggling to make a go of things, out of work. I have no intention of reporting him or anything of the sort, I just think, as my thread title suggested, that it is "not right", probably more morally than anything else. Nobody seems to have taken up the point that if they had been undercut by a guy like this, whether he is a copper, banker or anyone else on shift work, they should probably stick to that and work in a bar if they want a bit of extra dollar. Personally I think that everything that goes with being properly self-employed and maintaining a good standard of professionalism, along with all the things that go with it, is well enough to keep most people fully occupied. I would suggest that most people who are operating in this "on the side"manner are not only short cutting the job but probably short cutting many of their other obligations as well, including their tax, and they are certainly very unlikely to be part of a registered scheme. Regarding the 3rd part certification aspect I personally would not touch it with a barge-pole.
One can take a moral stance on things, but often they are 'ones' opinion, perhaps not subscribed to by others. Dare I say you will find a host of other electricians who had previous careers, some in military service, some in public service etc and some of them members of this forum, I seem to remember. I'm sure those working in the hospitality industry, would have different views on persons in well paid primary jobs doing part time work in their industry.

Back to the copper, if he isn't conducting himself correctly with his affairs as an electrician, he would be in danger losing his job as a police officer. Secondary employment in the public sector, is a contentious issue, but the private sector doesn't appear to attract the same 'press'.

I can understand your frustration, but I think it should be directed more at your builder, who is employing someone who probably is under cutting you, so that the builder is making more on his 'mark up'. I know of a few builders, where the trades invoices go through them, even though the builder has nothing to do with the job. Sort of consultancy work, by the builder making money out of people without lifting a finger. That's immoral IMO.
 

Rpa07

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"I find it makes life far more interesting having 2 different jobs."
Of course, you would know @happyhippydad
 

Pete999

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Allo Allo whats going on ere then, your nicked sunshine
 

Midwest

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Is you a bit tiddly, cos your heading this thread in a south westerly direction, towards Old Bill lighthouse. Suns over the yardarm now though :thumbsup:
 

FatAlan

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Policing was fun in the days of the Sweeney. The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 is the police equivalent of Part P and BS7671 All bloody jobs are paralysed by Regs and the only people who make money are the lawyers.
Get yer trousers on sonny, your nicked!
 

Diddy

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I think the op is looking at this issue all wrong. The fact that the other "electrician" is also employed in another job is irrelevant. The relevant part here is he is doing notifiable work without the ability to notify. If the scheme sparks in your local area stuck together and refused to notify A N Others work then this would be nipped in the bud pretty quickly.
But im afraid their are plenty of our fellow electricians who are quite happy to "sell their soul" for the 20 pieces of silver - So we are not going to stop this annoying stuff any time soon.
But just to clarify I would be just as peed off about Rob from the end of the bar doing me out of a job as I would about a retiring PC Plod.
 

rolyberkin

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So you think it is OK for a guy in a perfectly well paid job with a very good pension to be moonlighting, probably undercutting other sparks who are trying to make a living as their sole occupation? How would you feel if you lost a job to some part time fly-by-night who is just doing it for beer money, and not very well at that?? Sorry matey I don't think it's perfectly acceptable at all.
I don't understand your issue, I agree with @happyhippydad, if it is declared secondary employment then I don't have an issue (apart from his crap work!) Personally I have more of an issue with crap full time sparkys who should know better! Isn't all work just for beer money?
 
H

hightower

I'm siding with Roly and HHD too - it sounds to me that you've got an axe to grind. I don't see the issue with two jobs provided the person in question still does both those jobs correctly. There's two angles to this for me:

1) You don't have enough work on
2) You have plenty work on

If you don't have enough work on, it's not necessarily people like this to blame. I know plenty of sparks whose attitude is "that's the price if you want me to do it, if you want a cowboy feel free to get Dave from the pub at your own peril" and they do just fine.

If you have plenty work on, then get on with it - it wouldn't be affecting you anyways.

Cheaper options exist everywhere. If you'll do a job for £1 someone will do it for 50p somewhere. Not just with labour, if you sell a product of quality for £10, there's guaranteed to be a cheaper knock off for a fiver.

What someone currently earns/gets in pension/has in job satisfaction has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are able/qualified/experienced/good enough to do a secondary job on the side, and I honestly can't see one ounce of logic in your argument that it does.
 
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sparksburnout

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I don't see the issue with two jobs provided the person in question still does both those jobs correctly.
I don't have an axe to grind at all, I think you have defeated your own argument in your statement actually. The fact that a copper is already doing a very demanding and time consuming job (the one in question is plain clothes), to me suggests he will not have the time to do another fairly demanding one, at least properly. IMO this is demonstrated in his obvious lack of awareness on this job. Who knows what other errors he is making in either of his "occupations", plus the fact that he is taking work from other sparks, probably so he can have the latest 4x4 and three holidays a year, while guys trying to make a go of it are losing out. IMO he is just a greedy *** Maybe it is just a sign of the times I guess.
 

Spike1947

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I see where you are coming from , I don't think the Police nor the Fire service should be doing other paid ( legislative ) work , but my question is , who has done the design work for this ! .
 
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