neutrals at switches

[wattsup]

easy peasy wiring....i never used to do it, but now seems common practice...I was intending to use dp grid switches...but now ahhh, we want dimmers . No probs with the rotary dimmers but a neutral connected in the backbox. Is that bad pactice?

 

[Adam W]

I dislike doing that in domestic properties because i don't trust some householder not to come along and 'convert' it into a socket to run their vacuum cleaner off.
Otherwise it's perfectly acceptable (easier for downlighers) and you don't even need DP switches - you can use a bit of terminal block behind the switch because the joint is accessible.

 

[Guest123]

Have a look.....

http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...forum/14868-loop-loop-out.html?highlight=loop

 

[RexT]

Hi Wattsup,

It used to be considered bad practice but is now acccepted. If the neutrals are clearly identified by colour and installed as per BS7671 etc I don't think there is an issue. It is taught in colleges as an option to 'take the power to the switch'as well as to the ceiling rose. I agree with NovusSparkus that the DIYer will or can do conversions but surely the comeback would be with them if the installation complied? We can't prevent such changes and provided the installation was correctly documented and legal then the law should protet the electrician.

Hope this helps,

Best wishes

Rex

 

[Spudnik]

I cant see an issue myself, and do it most of the time, especially when there are downlights involved.

 

[sythai]

Yep do it most of the time, much easier...

you can use a bit of terminal block behind the switch

you can also use one of these, which are very good quality, quick and simple to use:

 

[baldsparkies]

It,s been common place for years in the commercial world,especially on a conduit install. In the domestic world I am not convinced that this should become the norm over 3 plate. Just an opinion I know. And why the need for neutrals at the switch, just because a dimmer is involved ? There are so many line and load only dimmers on the market.

 

[baldsparkies]

Yep do it most of the time, much easier...

you can also use one of these, which are very good quality, quick and simple to use:

Good old wago connectors

 

[b-spark]

easy peasy wiring....i never used to do it, but now seems common practice...I was intending to use dp grid switches...but now ahhh, we want dimmers . No probs with the rotary dimmers but a neutral connected in the backbox. Is that bad pactice?

on a tech note it helps to cancel out emf running them together you can see it happening with tv's sometimes when you get flux on the picture. Really helps those with hearing aids thats why on 3plate you wire induction loops on two ways.

 

[bugsy]

The only advantage in having neutrals at the switch in my opinion is retro fitting some wirless retrofit systems ( Jung & C-Bus ) which require a neutral to the switch

 

[davelerave]

The only advantage in having neutrals at the switch in my opinion is retro fitting some wirless retrofit systems ( Jung & C-Bus ) which require a neutral to the switch

it can simplify the connecting at lights

 

[baldsparkies]

Another consideration should be given to the fact that for a number of reasons it can be an advantage having a permanent live at the fittings ie ext fans, smoke detectors, even a possible e/m light fitting. all possibles at a future date, with 3 plate. Also whilst it may simplify connections at the light fittings,to have neutrals at the switch, it will complicate things at the switch positions. I would only do this if neccassary, again just an opinion. Also any inductive/back emf sensitive equipment should be run in screened or shielded cables to be on the safe side anyway's. Again just an observation, we all have our prefferances.

 

[Retroviper]

I think it is great to just have the one cable at the light and like to do it where i can when I know fancy lights are being used.
I hate chasing though so I wouldn't bother to do it on a rewire if I could pull one cable down to the switch but not three.

 

[wattsup]

And why the need for neutrals at the switch, just because a dimmer is involved ?

no need, as i said i was going to use dp switches, then the customer later decides on dimmer switches, so i'm stuck wiith neutrals in a connector, at that particular switch.

the reason I was using dp switches was simply for my own get out of jail card...what neutrals at switches!...err yes but dp switches. In the commercial / industrial world it is unheard of, all singles in conduit, trunking is the norm.

 

[wattsup]

3 rooms have 12 downlights in each room, 2 rooms have 6 downlights, the bathroom has 8, and the 2 en-suite have 6 in each...hence i like neutrals at switches now -

 

[b-spark]

Another consideration should be given to the fact that for a number of reasons it can be an advantage having a permanent live at the fittings ie ext fans, smoke detectors, even a possible e/m light fitting. all possibles at a future date, with 3 plate. Also whilst it may simplify connections at the light fittings,to have neutrals at the switch, it will complicate things at the switch positions. I would only do this if neccassary, again just an opinion. Also any inductive/back emf sensitive equipment should be run in screened or shielded cables to be on the safe side anyway's. Again just an observation, we all have our prefferances.

Not to start a fuss but what about isolation for e/m and smokes. Your still going to have to knock out for a test switch.

 

[baldsparkies]

Not to start a fuss but what about isolation for e/m and smokes. Your still going to have to knock out for a test switch.

Nothing wrong with the isolation being local to the e/m. Depends on the situation admitted, but there have been times when a permanent live at a light fitting as saved a lot of messing around.

 

[ian.settle1]

It would be mighty congested if you had a two gang two way switch with neutrals at the switch.

 

[davelerave]

It would be mighty congested if you had a two gang two way switch with neutrals at the switch.

it's standard practice hewre now in ROI

but you'd be using 35mm boxes-preferably

 

[baldsparkies]

It would be mighty congested if you had a two gang two way switch with neutrals at the switch.

Agree competely Ian.
I think there is a place for both methods, but using the neutral at switch as a preferance over 3 plate on a regular basis would not be a good thing. 3 plate in domestic installs is well proven, yes there are examples when the latter may prove beneficial but not as a replacement to tried and tested methods. If its not broke, why fix it.

 

[davelerave]

Agree competely Ian.
I think there is a place for both methods, but using the neutral at switch as a preferance over 3 plate on a regular basis would not be a good thing. 3 plate in domestic installs is well proven, yes there are examples when the latter may prove beneficial but not as a replacement to tried and tested methods. If its not broke, why fix it.

you have to isolate the circuit with 3-plate to change fitting

also light fitting is congested with wires

 

[baldsparkies]

you have to isolate the circuit with 3-plate to change fitting

also light fitting is congested with wires

I would isolate if changing a fitting anyway, regardless. The click (Oh sorry didnt see you up there) scenario, whilst your doing your version of a breakdancer up a ladder doesnt appeal to me.

 

[davelerave]

it's basically the same thing

loop to switches or loop to lights-much easier to swop out fitings with just the t+e

less diy disasters as well

loop in to lights is handier for re-wires

 

[baldsparkies]

What about the diy guy changing the light switch. I think this one goes here and that one goes there. Right, lets switch on BANG!!.
Lets face it there are pros and cons for both methods.

 

[davelerave]

changing the light switch is identical both methods

walking to work is tried and tested but we use cars these days -think about that

 

[wattsup]

loop out ceiling is ok when one fitting, but 12 lights switched 2-gang is a semi-problem (not problem really but hassle). It is easier to first fix loop in ceiling, but much harder 2nd fix.

If it were a new build, i would use singles all the time

 

[baldsparkies]

changing the light switch is identical both methods

walking to work is tried and tested but we use cars these days -think about that

Youv'e just explained why I can't see my willy anymore.

 

[specs]

It would be mighty congested if you had a two gang two way switch with neutrals at the switch.

Which is exactly what i have, which is why i have been reading this forum. 2x supply 2 core an earth (one in, one out to next room) 2x 3core an earth, 2x 2core an earth to lights. I can get rid of one supply cable by moviing it to the last room on that particular circuit but that still leaves me with5 cables in one switch box ie 17 individual cores. my initial thought was oh s..t, but now i'm thinking shall i just make the box deeper ( a lot deeper ). I am fitting 14 downlighters split on the two circuits. Any thoughts !!!

 

[Rockingit]

Haven't got BGB to hand, but I believe that 2011 now says that consideration should be given to provide a neutral at a switch position. The intent behind this is for electronic switching devices that require one.

 

[chronyx]

Beat me to it, you can get neutral-free electronic switches but using them with discharge lighting means install capacitors in all the fittings.

 

[specs]

Got it sorted, used a 47mm box and set it a tad deeper, then used Wago connectors . I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was with these connectors and it didn't look like a plate of ' spag bol' when i finished.

 

[Knobhead]

To be honest it’s something I’ve never done. But the last house I rewired was 25 years back. It does make sense to take the neutral to the switch.
With new switch technology a neutral may be required in the future. OK a deeper box is needed but I now would say it’s worth the effort. (There again I’m not knocking the hole out for it).

 

[nickblake]

with some of the light fittings you get the connection they have are so small easier to switch feed them prime example is wall lights

 

[specs]

This is now the way forward for me, i cannot for the life of me see a a negative.

 

[DNG]

One possible reason for neutral at switch, would be to allow an earth loop impedance check at a metal clad switch. Thus saving trailing cables giving marginally incorrect readings.

 

[Swicade]

Being one of those sparks used to installing 3 plate (stuck in me ways i reckon) i'm starting to wonder if instead of just using a twin & earth for my switch cable i might use a 3 core and earth instead...giving me a 3 plate + neutral at the switch. Only problem is 2 neutrals in one hole at the ceiling rose *ponders*

 

[Guest55]

I've been looping in and out from the switches for 15 years , so have all the other sparks i've grown up with who have served their time in the commercial sector.
Pro's outweigh the cons in my mind.

 

[rich.250]

Looping at the switch is so much easier to install in my opinion.
Easier to fit the crappy customer supplied fittings designed for one cable....
And less Connections to make off
Above your head! Especially as I'm
Short lol.
Nice and easy at working height at the
Switch

 

[KFH]

I use which ever method works best for the installation I am working on. I do have a preference for neutral at the switch, so many modern light fittings will not easily take a 3 plate connection. I usually put in deeper back boxes for switches to allow for dimmers to be fitted in the future. I have also, in bungalows, fitted junction boxes at convenient locations and taken T&E to switch and to lights.

 

[YoungBart]

Working in the modular building game we always loop into the switch. IMO it's alot easier, and dare I say abit simpler, When I was at college however I was told it was bad practice, and wasn't allowed to wire any of the rigs that way.
Personally I think there are pro's and con's to both, But for me looping at the switch is the better option in most cases, Unless your looping into a pull switch or something like that.