New kitchen does it need own fusebox or change just the mains fusebox?

[Ell4848]

New kitchen will be installed. Do we need to rewire the kitchen? The fusebox we have is ancient and our electrician has recommended to rewire kitchen then have a consumer unit just for the kitchen electrics as he said things may trip because our consumer unit is old but my builder who covers all of this said we can change the main fusebox in the house and he's included first fix electrics in his quote


We are not changing too much when it comes to the electrics, some advice would be very much appreciated

We will be replacing the kitchen light fixture that is already there(ceiling) and replacing with something similar.

The washing machine will need a new socket installed ( double socket) and plumbing as its being moved completely to the opposite side of the kitchen where it is now

Fridge is staying in same location

The gas cooker will be moved approximately 50-60cm to the left of its current location and the new gas cooker will have an electric grill inside, the previous one was all gas (new cooker will have double gas oven with electric grill)

We would want to replace all socket covers currently there as well for aesthetics
Thank you in advance

 

[Taylortwocities]

The ancient fuse board will need upgrading before long. In fact the next bit of electrical work you have done will need it.
Putting a mini board just for the kitchen is kicking the can down the road.

Change the Fusebox for a nice new shiny consumer unit and the whole house will benefit from the safety snd other features afforded you.

I would question your choice of electrician if he’s scared to change a fuse board because it “things might trip”

 

[buzzlightyear]

Not seeing your kitchen lay out if the said
Spark recommendeds a rewire then I would go with that, separate consumer unit will be in order.

 

[Ell4848]

Not seeing your kitchen lay out if the said
Spark recommendeds a rewire then I would go with that separate consumer unit will be in order.

Thanks. I suggested this to our electrician and he suggested rewiring then have own fusebox just for kitchen.

He said if he changes the main fusebox it could trip what's in the kitchen? And because its a new kitchen he said we wouldn't want to go behind cupboard etc

Are you an electrician? What do you think. Would the new applicances and new socket trip?

 

[Ell4848]

Not seeing your kitchen lay out if the said
Spark recommendeds a rewire then I would go with that, separate consumer unit

 

[Ell4848]

Also the electrician hasn't seen our kitchen or the layour

 

[buzzlightyear]

Are you an electrician? What do you think. Would the new applicances and new socket trip?

Some times my head thinks I'm am
But my body don't think so, lol , post up a pic of the fuse box.

 

[Mikegh]

With so little extra wiring , upgrading at the main board would seem the logical choice

Could end up with kitchen rewire and new main board or even extra sub -board, hard to say without a survey

 

[Taylortwocities]

Are you an electrician? What do you think. Would the new applicances and new socket trip?

No. Why on earth would they? It will be new wiring in the kitchen, new appliances.
I think what your so-called electrician is saying is that existing faults in the old wiring may need attention if a new consumer unit is installed replacing the ancient fuse board.
Well, that is of course possible. But I’m sure that you wouldn’t want a dodgy connection in the old wiring sparking away and catching fire, would you.
And, as I said above, when the next project comes along - perhaps new bathroom lighting, or an additional socket - that will require RCD protection and you’ll need a new consumer unit at that time, and the existing installation will need testing and faults repaired anyway.
Now’s the time. Just do it right.

 

[robd]

I expect he's thinking he doesn't want the can of worms that could be the rest of the house or that it's a lot easier for him to give you a firm price if he sticks to just pricing the new work and then separating the new from old with a separate consumer unit. Realistically you are probably better to change your consumer unit now as well but I do understand why he has said that.

 

[Ell4848]

No. Why on earth would they? It will be new wiring in the kitchen, new appliances.
I think what your so-called electrician is saying is that existing faults in the old wiring may need attention if a new consumer unit is installed replacing the ancient fuse board.
Well, that is of course possible. But I’m sure that you wouldn’t want a dodgy connection in the old wiring sparking away and catching fire, would you.
And, as I said above, when the next project comes along - perhaps new bathroom lighting, or an additional socket - that will require RCD protection and you’ll need a new consumer unit at that time, and the existing installation will need testing and faults repaired anyway.
Now’s the time. Just do it right.

Do you recommend changing the main fuse board then or putting one in just for the kitchen? He recommended rewiring the kitchen. Don't know what to do obviously im new to this i want to keep costs down but I want the safest option where there shouldn't be problems in the future
As the electrician said, we don't want to be going behind cupboards. The builder has included 1st fix plumbing and electrics do you know what this covers??

Thank you

 

[Mikegh]

I expect he's thinking he doesn't want the can of worms that could be the rest of the house or that it's a lot easier for him to give you a firm price if he sticks to just pricing the new work and then separating the new from old with a separate consumer unit. Realistically you are probably better to change your consumer unit now as well but I do understand why he has said that.

Definitely , there's those 2 sides to it

 

[telectrix]

wary of builder doing any work ekectrical. apart from the fact that it could be done by labourets on low wages, there is the problem that when an electrician does the 2nd fix and comes to test, there will be builder's work that he cannot say he has done himself and many will not certify or copmply with part pee.

 

[Ell4848]

wary of builder doing any work ekectrical. apart from the fact that it could be done by labourets on low wages, there is the problem that when an electrician does the 2nd fix and comes to test, there will be builder's work that he cannot say he has done himself and many will not certify or copmply with part pee.

Its a big building firm. I will clarify they are using registered electricians pretty sure they are but i will clarify its important.

 

[Ell4848]

Am I going with the main fusebox change or kitchen fusebox with rewiring?

Touch wood our electrics are old but they are good and served us well. No issues

The builder uses a NICEIC registered electrician so can do 1st phase and second phase

My electrician on the other hand said he thinks it needs a full rewire in the kitchen. He changed a socket at our house last year and remembered the condition based on those plug cables.

What do you think?

 

[littlespark]

Builders are notorious for cutting corners. They will just joint cables and leave them in the wall…. It’ll work, and will probably test ok, but they are on a price and will do things quickly. NICEIC or not.

If your own electrician recommends a rewire, I’d get him to do it all.

As asked above, can we get a photo of the the fuse board. We can then guesstimate the age of the installation. (The fuse board and wiring will be of the same age)

Any alteration to existing circuits, be it lighting or power will require rcd protection.

 

[Markyd]

Get an EICR done on the house to see if any faults exist first...as you could end up with a full house rewire

 

[Bellendian]

To me this sounds like the condition of the wiring and existing fusebox may all be in need of attention.
The electrician working for the builders doing the kitchen work simply wants to make sure that all of the new work in the kitchen is up to scratch, and by fitting a separate new board for the kitchen and his new work, leaves a clear demarcation line between what he has done, and the existing.
It is sometimes not as simple as 'just changing the main board' if the existing wiring in the rest of the house is below par. Yes you have experienced no problems to date, but very often the faults detected by thorough inspection and testing never reveal themselves to the end user until a fault occurs and safety systems do not work as intended.
In essence they are both right, but to change the main board could lead to the need to partially or wholely rewire the rest of the house, not just the kitchen.
If you really want to make an informed decision, then the best way is to pay for an electrician to carry out an EICR on the existing wiring. You would then have the information needed to make a decision on the best way to proceed.

 

[Ell4848]

To me this sounds like the condition of the wiring and existing fusebox may all be in need of attention.
The electrician working for the builders doing the kitchen work simply wants to make sure that all of the new work in the kitchen is up to scratch, and by fitting a separate new board for the kitchen and his new work, leaves a clear demarcation line between what he has done, and the existing.
It is sometimes not as simple as 'just changing the main board' if the existing wiring in the rest of the house is below par. Yes you have experienced no problems to date, but very often the faults detected by thorough inspection and testing never reveal themselves to the end user until a fault occurs and safety systems do not work as intended.
In essence they are both right, but to change the main board could lead to the need to partially or wholely rewire the rest of the house, not just the kitchen.
If you really want to make an informed decision, then the best way is to pay for an electrician to carry out an EICR on the existing wiring. You would then have the information needed to make a decision on the best way to proceed.

It's my electrician that want to do the rewiring with separate fusebox

However builder and his company they can change the main fusebox and do 1st and 2nd phase electrics. I've also asked for the gas and electric quotes when completed

I've attached the fusebox we have now. It's over 25 years old

I cant open anything up to see inside as it's very high up and the stools I have to look further cannot access until tomorrow

Hope that helps

Thank you

 

[Ell4848]

Meant to say..

I've also asked for the gas and electric CERTIFICATES when completed

 

[littlespark]

25 year old? Try nearer 50.

Same as what was in my parents house, and its the same age as me....
So expect the wiring to be 50 years old as well, and any original accessories.

 

[Ell4848]

25 year old? Try nearer 50.

Same as what was in my parents house, and its the same age as me....
So expect the wiring to be 50 years old as well, and any original accessories.

Do I change the main fusebox only then
?

 

[Dave OCD]

The thing is, 50 year old wiring can often test out perfectly if it hasn't been messed with over the years , but I'd certainly recommend a thorough test and inspection, there are certain faults that rewirable fuses will never react to whereas a new RCBO unit would be tripping constantly. But any decent electrician will carry out thorough testing as part of the Consumer Unit upgrade, it's necessary for the certification.

 

[Dave OCD]

The only way any of us on here could be certain of giving the best advice would be by being 'on site' and having a proper look including a few basic tests. And even then different electricians would disagree on their idea of the best way forward.

 

[Electrics]

Never ever let a builder do your electrics. Not only are they not qualified but they charge more than necessary a lot of the time.

Get an electrician to do it.

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

Get the existing fuse board replaced. Doesn't look like there will be many circuits in your existing board so it shouldn't take very long to swap out.

This will enable the cabling throughout the house to be better protected. Things may begin to trip but only if there are faults in your installation and if there are, you'd much rather know they're there and have them sorted wouldn't you?

 

[Ell4848]

The thing is, 50 year old wiring can often test out perfectly if it hasn't been messed with over the years , but I'd certainly recommend a thorough test and inspection, there are certain faults that rewirable fuses will never react to whereas a new RCBO unit would be tripping constantly. But any decent electrician will carry out thorough testing as part of the Consumer Unit upgrade, it's necessary for the certification.

That's what the electrician said. A new mains fusebox may trip everything amd he is suggesting a rewire in the kitchen with a consumer unit just for the kitchen
He said he can change the main consumer unit but to avoid going under new units etc its best to rewire kitchen
Thoughts?

 

[Mikegh]

That's what the electrician said. A new mains fusebox may trip everything amd he is suggesting a rewire in the kitchen with a consumer unit just for the kitchen
He said he can change the main consumer unit but to avoid going under new units etc its best to rewire kitchen
Thoughts?

That can be an ok way of doing it

Submain ,sub-board and rewire in kitchen only

It leaves the rest of the house and main board as a separate job

There's no single right answer and there's a few variables subject to site survey

 

[Grant1987]

That's what the electrician said. A new mains fusebox may trip everything amd he is suggesting a rewire in the kitchen with a consumer unit just for the kitchen
He said he can change the main consumer unit but to avoid going under new units etc its best to rewire kitchen
Thoughts?

I think you’re electrician is advising the most sensible thing here and saying to install a new ring main to kitchen to separate his work from any existing wiring/circuits. If you gave him the go ahead to do an EICR prior to the work he could then determine the condition of the existing electrics which by the looks of your photos seems pretty outdated, if your on the cautious side with costs I can see why you’re electrician is suggesting seperate consumer to cover himself for the kitchen works.

 

[Ell4848]

I think you’re electrician is advising the most sensible thing here and saying to install a new ring main to kitchen to separate his work from any existing wiring/circuits. If you gave him the go ahead to do an EICR prior to the work he could then determine the condition of the existing electrics which by the looks of your photos seems pretty outdated, if your on the cautious side with costs I can see why you’re electrician is suggesting seperate consumer to cover himself for the kitchen works.

Also the builder uses a certified electrician which will include 1st fix electrics is that rewiring,,??

 

[Mikegh]

Also the builder uses a certified electrician which will include 1st fix electrics is that rewiring,,??

Ya pretty much

 

[Ell4848]

Ya pretty much

So first fix and new main consumer unit should be ok?

 

[telectrix]

So first fix and new main consumer unit should be ok?

youhave 2 distinct issues here.

1.kitchen needs new circuits and can be independent of the rest of the house ( except for it's feed from the main CU).
2. the main CU needs updating , the existing wiring checked and any faults recified. this could be a simple few repairs or a complete rewire, dependeing in the conditionof the wiring, 50 years is average lifespan for an installation but you could find that the wiring is good for another 50.

above should be determined by a thorough inspection and test: then you will have a better idea of what is required. main thing is if you are going for rewiring, do it before decorating.

 

[buzzlightyear]

has above from my master , i would get independent spark in from the builders one. so if there is any shouting to do it will not be the builder .

 

[telectrix]

builder may be genuine and has a registered spark on hand. not all builders are rogues. i've worked with some good, some bad.

 

[Ell4848]

But the first fix in the kitchen is rewiring isn't it. Plus we are changing the main consumer unit.

If there is another issue with the electrics it wouldn't be the kitchen right? First fix is before they start decorating

 

[Ell4848]

builder may be genuine and has a registered spark on hand. not all builders are rogues. i've worked with some good, some bad.

He is. They are a big firm and do lots of extensive building work, extensions, full refurbishments, loft conversions
They do big jobs. Also he sent me a hole list of clients he's completed work with in the past 12 months with their email number and full address for reference purposes. I happen to know a couple

 

[Ell4848]

I've also requested the gas and electric certificates as well once work is completed

 

[buzzlightyear]

builder may be genuine and has a registered spark on hand. not all builders are rogues. i've worked with some good, some bad

i bet some were ugly . lol.

 

[telectrix]

i bet some were ugly . lol.

that could depend on their faces or their bum cleavages. both are usually hairy.

 

[Bellendian]

Never ever let a builder do your electrics. Not only are they not qualified but they charge more than necessary a lot of the time.

Get an electrician to do it.

I think you're confusing a genuine main contractor, with some plank that works out of an estate car, potentially giving bad advice with the above statement.
There are many established bona-fide building contractors that will either have qualified sparks on the payroll or sub contract the work to qualified sparks.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a building contractor quoting to deliver an overall package of work that might require the services of many specialised and skilled subcontractors.
As for the charging aspect, well yes, you can expect a main contractor to apply a mark up to sub contract rates, as project management and ongoing liability have to be covered. I wouldn't refer to that as 'overcharging' though.

 

[Electrics]

I think you're confusing a genuine main contractor, with some plank that works out of an estate car

I'm not. 'genuine main contractor' doesn't mean he knows electrics, and neither does working out of a van. The best electrician at work works out of a hatchback.

The point was, most builders aren't going to be actually qualified or experienced to do electrics, and the ones that get someone else in who is qualified to do it are going to be mostly miles more expensive than just going directly to a firm yourself since they put loads of mark up on top for themselves.

potentially giving bad advice

'Get an electrician to do your electrics' is bad advice on an electrical forum?

 

[Bellendian]

I'm not. 'genuine main contractor' doesn't mean he knows electrics, and neither does working out of a van. The best electrician at work works out of a hatchback.

The point was, most builders aren't going to be actually qualified or experienced to do electrics, and the ones that get someone else in who is qualified to do it are going to be mostly miles more expensive than just going directly to a firm yourself since they put loads of mark up on top for themselves.


'Get an electrician to do your electrics' is bad advice on an electrical forum?

I think you mis understand my point.
The ones that employ reputable, skilled subcontractors also manage the job, time everything in, and carry the overall risk.
Many customers want a turn key one stop solution, and are happy to pay for that service, as opposed to trying to manage all the trades themselves. So it's not a case of 'they just pocket it all themselves' it's delivering a service to the customer that they want, and are happy to pay for.
To say that all customers should dismiss any builder that includes electrical work in their package of work, and say that they should have to go to the hassle of having to arrange and project manage their own spark is ridiculous.
And yes, I do think that saying a customer should not trust a reputable main contractor to deliver a quality job, and that they should have to arrange and micro manage all the trades is bad advice.

 

[Electrics]

I think you mis understand my point.
The ones that employ reputable, skilled subcontractors also manage the job, time everything in, and carry the overall risk.
Many customers want a turn key one stop solution, and are happy to pay for that service, as opposed to trying to manage all the trades themselves. So it's not a case of 'they just pocket it all themselves' it's delivering a service to the customer that they want, and are happy to pay for.
To say that all customers should dismiss any builder that includes electrical work in their package of work, and say that they should have to go to the hassle of having to arrange and project manage their own spark is ridiculous.
And yes, I do think that saying a customer should not trust a reputable main contractor to deliver a quality job, and that they should have to arrange and micro manage all the trades is bad advice.

In the real world it's hardly graft to call a spark and tell him 'it's ready for you tuesday, do you need a key' is it.

The point is most builders offering to do electrics will do them themselves and those that don't put huge markup on the price for themselves.

I can't actually believe you're taking umbrage with what i'm saying just because 1/100 'builders' will be some legit huge company who does everything properly, it's mad. The vast majority of the time, by letting a builder take care of your electrics you're getting a worse, more expensive job.

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

Jerry... Jerry... Jerry...

 

[robd]

But the first fix in the kitchen is rewiring isn't it. Plus we are changing the main consumer unit.

If there is another issue with the electrics it wouldn't be the kitchen right? First fix is before they start decorating

First fix kitchen could mean rewire or it could mean alter existing to new points and layout. Really it is no good asking us, there should be a specification of work to be done and you should understand it. You need to speak to the main contractor to go through these details so you are clear and happy before they proceed. In my experience of being self employed customer satisfaction is all down to communication and expectation levels being set i.e. you understand what it is you are agreeing to them doing before you say yes go ahead.

 

[littlespark]

Ignore the bickering.

Original question was “do I need to rewire the kitchen?”
The answer is, it depends on the condition of the cables. Some electricians may just alter and add to what’s there. Another may insist on it.
It would be easier to do it now before new kitchen goes in.
Does it “need” done?- possibly not.
Is it advisable to be done?- oh yes.

The further question of replacing the fuse board…
Any alterations to the wiring of sockets or lights are required to be protected by rcd. Even if it’s adding a socket or changing a single light point to half a dozen downlights or whatever.

As mentioned, there could be problems lurking in the original wiring on other circuits that needs sorted before they can be connected to an rcd. So replacing the whole fuse board is possible, but could be a lot of time sorting problems.

Adding a second distribution board beside the fuse box just for the kitchen is also a valid solution, but you may think it’s a waste to put it in if you’re planning to replace the entire fuse box in the future.

You could add a second box that is big enough replace the fuse box, but have the spare ways blanked off. Then, in the future, move the circuits from old box to new.


The end result here, is you want a new kitchen fitted, where everything works, and you don’t want to rip bits out of it to repair a fault that could have been fixed before the kitchen went in.
How that is done is up to you through discussions with the guys doing the work.

I’m sure there are good builders out there…. And if your builders electrician suggests rewiring the kitchen, then I’d go with that.
If the builders electrician just adds to what’s there… then you should question it.

We have all come across bodge jobs by builders and kitchen fitters, like I said back in #13: They might cut corners. They might joint a cable and tile over it. They might not add the rcd protection that is now required.


It’s down to you yourself deciding either your own trusted electrician, or the one supplied by the builder, who may have good recommendations, but who you don’t actually know.

 

[Mikegh]

First fix kitchen could mean rewire or it could mean alter existing to new points and layout. Really it is no good asking us, there should be a specification of work to be done and you should understand it. You need to speak to the main contractor to go through these details so you are clear and happy before they proceed. In my experience of being self employed customer satisfaction is all down to communication and expectation levels being set i.e. you understand what it is you are agreeing to them doing before you say yes go ahead.

^ you're right there ,I shouldnt have called 1st fix a rewire , it may just be extending kitchen circuits as you say

In my world when a builder gives an all inclusive price , he's included his electricians price plus a markup

At the dodgier end of the business some builders will be hiring unqualified guys to boost their overall profit, never really heard of this with respectable builders

 

[DPG]

^ you're right there ,I shouldnt have called 1st fix a rewire , it may just be extending kitchen circuits as you say

In my world when a builder gives an all inclusive price , he's included his electricians price plus a markup

At the dodgier end of the business some builders will be hiring unqualified guys to boost their overall profit, never really heard of this with respectable builders

Absolutely. It's certainly not correct to say that all building companies that include electrical work in projects are no good.

It's like saying all lecturers are no good, or all training colleges are no good.

After all, I'm sure we'd all be a bit upset if someone had a bad experience with an electrician, and then went round saying all sparkies are no good.

 

[Mikegh]

Absolutely. It's certainly not correct to say that all building companies that include electrical work in projects are no good.

It's like saying all lecturers are no good, or all training colleges are no good.

After all, I'm sure we'd all be a bit upset if someone had a bad experience with an electrician, and then went round saying all sparkies are no good.

Most of the semi-dodgy builders will still get a registered electrician ime anyway

They just don't want the hassle that comes with using bad sparks