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sparkyork

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hi everyone, just been too look at a nice job in leeds which should give me plenty of work :)
shop is approx 15m x 35m ish with a mezanine floor at one end.

couple of questions as ive done a bit bit not that much comemrcial stuff.

1. there are going to be a max of 12 refrigerators, do i split this into 3 or 4 circuits or....?

2. 4 air conditioners, thinking of suppliying these seperately
3. small cafe area to the back of the shop, with 3 phase cooker. and a seperate socket circuit just for this area, aswell as its own lighting circuit.
4. thinkin of keeping mezanine sockets and lighting on there own circuits.
5. office with computer on its own socket circuit.
6. tills on there own circuit

that ll do for now, guess you get the idea'ish! dont know what lighting but theres gonna be a lot of it, so im allowing 6 circuits for this. as well as e/lighting circuit.
thinking of using a 36way 3 phase board and after counting circuits so far (not all mentioned here) ive got 29 ways so...

also, down the sides of the shop is wooden display units incorporating the refrigerators etc going all the way down to the bottom. fridges gonna plug in above these units and be out of sight via a pelmet. im thinking of running 2x4" trays down either side of the shop just obove these units and was wondering what the best way of terminating into socket outlets would be? dont wanna run swa everywhere as its all out of sight and in no danger so wanna use standard pvc, (peel off the tray into metal clad sockets/via grommets or...)

also the lighting is gonna run on these trays as well then peel off upwards into conduit going up the wall and across to relevant "clix" outlets for the lighting, again wanna do this in pvc.

your comments suggestions are greatly appreciated

rich
 
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sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
its sort of like a health food shop with yoga rooms and stuff, food stuff downstairs.
 
W

wayne

cant immediately fault any of the above although im sure someone can give you further advice ,looks like your'e going to be busy
 
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tony.towa

Not trying to teach granny to suck eggs but check on the 'fridges' going down the wall. Some suppliers are now providing units with air con like external units needing an external isolator and they specify the internal connection must be via a BS4343 SP&N interlocked socket. :cool:
 
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sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
yeah looks like im gonna busy for a while!! ill get some pics up of it at the minute, just one big empty concrete box!

good point that tony, ive spoke to customer tonight and ive already asked for the rating of the fridges, so when he gets back to me i can confirm what you mentioned. again it kinda begs the question..if ive got a tray running horizontally down the wall is it gonna be ok running it all in standard T &E and possibly terminating these cables into an isolator then onto bs4343 socket? to be fair im more used to terminating swa into these accesories, but cant see the point in using this when its all out of harms way etc

rich
 
S

Spudmiester

Not trying to teach granny to suck eggs but check on the 'fridges' going down the wall. Some suppliers are now providing units with air con like external units needing an external isolator and they specify the internal connection must be via a BS4343 SP&N interlocked socket. :cool:

Tony is correct was going to say the same ! Also the air cons I have done have been three phase and I have just used an Isolator.
 
L

lee mcgregor

hi rich, i currently do quite alot of scotmid shops over scotland ie little "coop shops " with the same ideas we have a seperate board for refridgerators as normally they have this board next to refridgerator control panels and also take up quite alot of room and good i suppose to keep lighting and power in one board also being sub mains seperate earths run to each board , also we put small 10 way board into office with computers i suppose to stop people turning off by mistake,also tills we run 4mm radial clean supplies coming down to tills in chrome poles if coming over ceilings along with a ring main if other sockets are require over others tills for cleaners or any other day to day use, lights: a key switch at front door or however they get in, lighting up a passage to bank of switches for shop or switch with contactors ,refridgerators same idea as above each unit but hidden under pelmets and using either 16a 240 3 pin sockets or 32a 415 5pin sockets depends on size of them i suppose we feed these seperate in swa's all going back to boards on tray, Air cons spurs we put a couple of rings for them . theyve started getting us to extract from above where the bake the bread out onto shop floor as they think customers smelling this helps sell bread etc haha.. lighting through shop we normally use 150w hqi fittings metal halides" jcc made " straight down on shop floors and up aisles and tilting on permiter onto fridges . hope this has helped mate in any way .. heres a pictures of kinda the same fittings (HQI-TS DL150 Downlight) or (HQI-TS DL70 Downlight) 70 w version also used these but would recommend the 150w
 
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sparkyork

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  • #9
cheers lee really appreciate the input, gonna be speaking to customer 2moro now as its a bit late now. will find out whats going on with the fridges and air con setup, have to agree jcc do some pretty nice fittings as well, infact the customer was in manchester when i last spoke to him seeing about getting the manufacturer to come up with a lighting plan (i was never any good at all the formulae attached to working out height of fittings appossed to lumenicity and all that! lol)

is there anything wrong with using t & e for the supplies for stuff? what conditions generally have to be in place that recommend the use of armoureds? ps dont know if i mentioned but theres gonna be about 12 fridges

cheers everyone

rich
 
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lee mcgregor

if single phase and out of reach for joe public no dont see why not but if three phase then swa. we also had to wire all t+e in low smoke cable the white ****e thats impossible to strip haha might want to find out as for all shops and council stuff thats what they ask for .
 
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sparkyork

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  • #11
yeah cool lee, will get some more info 2moro, obviously its early days yet but theres just so much to think about!!
also dont think we'll be going for having seperate consumer units either. dont know whether to rely on the customer to get the info from the council as he's a bit forgetful, might sort that me self in the morning.

forgot to mention....theres a metered supply terminated into a sw/isolator in the commercial unit. customer informs me its a 45kva supply i didnt get chance to have a right good look as i had no steps with me and it was to dark. in peoples experiance and due to.. 45000/400=112.5A and 45000/230=195.6A can i expect it definately to be a 3 phase supply? will find out for definate 2moro but i just need to know now!!
 
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tony.towa

Know what you mean about lighting formulae and design but I found Illuma do a free CD with lighting design facilities. It's quite easy to use after a bit of practice and if you are using "standard" fittings you can substitute other manufacturers equivalents when the design is done.:D
 
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sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
well top marks to those of you that mentioned the 16a bs4343 (commandos)!!

thats exactly what the guy supplying the fridges has said he needs :)
im hoping to get some gear ordered by tommorrow night so i can start next week. ive asked him to find out the rating of these fridges, is it generally common practice to supply these 4343's with individual radials or.... (suggestions please!!)

he's also got an air con bloke he's seeing tommorow, theres gonna be 4 units alltogether, the bloke supplying them also told him that 3 phase conditioners are more efficient that single phase ones. he asked if this was true? i said i would pressume so as i know 3 phase motors are efficient but again im not 100% on this either.

also been doing a bit of reading in the big red book, im struggling to find formulae for working out cable grouping on a horizontal perferated tray, it states in there that mixing different sized/currents etc can be iffy and that its out of scope of it all?

im thinking of a 6" tray that'll have some lighting feeds on it, power feeds for fridges, till, and thats about it. so long as i keep lighting on one side of tray and power at other and try and maintain a descent gap between it be ok wont it? gonna be a seperate smaller tray for low voltage stuff as well

knows its a long message but ive got a lot on me mind! lol

cheers
 
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tony.towa

I had a couple of these beasts to install last year. The manufacturer/supplier actually specified individual radial circuits with the interlocked sockets. Whilst they run quite efficiently there is quite a pull on start up. Also, as far as your customer is concerned, a fault occuring on one while the shop is closed will only result in that specific unit "going off" if it trips the breaker, so the majority of the stock is not adversely affected. Remember to check if there an external unit with the fridges. This job is going to keep you active for a while. Nice one.:)
 
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sparkyork

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  • #15
cheers matey from what i can gather he had the option of getting external coolers for the fridges but didnt having planning permission for it so isnt bothering.

at the start of your post are you talking about air con or refridgerators?

yeah i agree its gotta be wise running the fridges on seperate radials, what would you use swa, or nice chunky flex? also you can get hold of combined isolating 4343 outlets are these gonna be acceptable?
 
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tony.towa

Have you thought about using SY, you're using it internally and it's nice and easy to get round your tray. Also will go into 4343's neatly.
Interlocked 4343 sockets are readily available with theplug being mechanically locked in when the integral isolator is switched on. strange as it may sound Gewiss do a good little unit for SP&N 16amp.
It was the fridges I had to install the supplies for but the shop also has air con fitted at the same time so had that to do aswell.:cool:
 
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sparkyork

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  • #17
yeah thought about it but didnt think about it enough, makes sense i suppose, ill get a price from wholesaler in the morning for a drum of it. think im gonna supply each fridge seperately
 
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sparkyork

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  • #18
hi all, had me 1st day on the job today, got a bit of tray on the wall, took me a while to get back into the swing of things! ill get some pics uploaded 2moro.

customer didnt like my £1.29 per metre price tag for sy, and didnt want swa either. so im doing it in T&E, pealing off the tray down a small amount of conduit into the commandos.

checked the supply at the back of the unit and its dead so he needs to get his landlord to do something about that! theres defo 3 phases there aswell. its a 4 core 25mm swa, but im a little concerned theres no seperate earth ran with it. should i recommend my customer asks for this to be instated? i know you can use the armouring but i dont like it not one bit! also the isolator says 63a in the bottom right corner, im presuming this means 63a per phase capacity? hopefully get in the meter room 2moro and really see whats going on.
 
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wayne

swa as earth is ok BUT IT NEEDS CALCULATING we did a job and had to run a seperate earth after calcs 25mm over 50m.
also bonding needs taking account of ......again someone else can give better advice
 
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sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
yeah i just dont trust it, i like to see a nice big seperate earth. its only gonna be 10-15m run at the very most, there is a water supply coming into the unit so im gonna stick a bond on that as well. as well as a supp bond to me cable tray? gonna do some reading tongight on rcd's in commercials or is it simply gonna be rcbo's on everything as there will be no cables below 50mm etc?
 
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sparkyork

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  • #22
chrers jib, yeah should be a good number really!

got another wee question:-

the tray im installing is well out of reach and is gonna be unseen when a plynth unit is made to cover it all up.
however the back end of the shop (approx half its length) is gonna have a mezaninne floor fitted, with a staircase on the left hand side against the wall, my worry is this, when potential public is walking up the stairs, when there half way up, if they really wanted to they could touch my cable tray and the cables on it, should i be concerned by this or??????
 
J

jibtech

can you run a big bit of trunking through there?

i dont know about regs wise.... its late

but i thought ah so what if they touch....but what if they pull lol

oh and i always get the waterpump plyers on the edges of the flange of the tray and squeeze em together yknow where the v cuts are makes em look proper bo!

another idea in the stairwell bolt a peice of tray upturned over the actual peice holding the cable thatll learn em!
 
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Shakey

yeah i just dont trust it, i like to see a nice big seperate earth. its only gonna be 10-15m run at the very most, there is a water supply coming into the unit so im gonna stick a bond on that as well. as well as a supp bond to me cable tray? gonna do some reading tongight on rcd's in commercials or is it simply gonna be rcbo's on everything as there will be no cables below 50mm etc?
why would you supp bond the tray? it is not extraneous is it????
 
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sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
good idea that jibtech, been on site today and client did say he could incorporate some sort of removable boxing to cover it all up, so will see whats best a bit nearer the time.

shakey, i was thinking with there been around 50-60m of tray that there could be potential for some kind of problem to occur and was just gonna bond it for peace of mind really, spech as the majority of cabling is gonna be t & e on it. let us know either way me old fruit about the best solution (if any) lol
i must admit i do generally go over the top with stuff, like if it needs just 2 clips/cleats ill give it 3 etc lol

rich

just to add to the above aswell:

the ceiling is 5.5m high and ive got conduit running to through box's etc for the lighting connections. im thinking of using them klix thingys! is there likely to be any sort of problem with the actual connection been 5.5m high? it may be awkward to get to once the shop is full of stock and shelving etc.

or am i worrying to much as usual?
 
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wayne

with regards tray ,the question is ;is it an exposed conductive part ?
this answer is the regs regard it so .first look up exposed conductive part then look up electrical equipment in the definitions
klik assemblies make life easier for maintenance ,lamp replacement luminaire replacement ,testing ....if they are drawing a lot of current consider a plug and socket arrangement
 
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Shakey

with regards tray ,the question is ;is it an exposed conductive part ?
this answer is the regs regard it so .first look up exposed conductive part then look up electrical equipment in the definitions
klik assemblies make life easier for maintenance ,lamp replacement luminaire replacement ,testing ....if they are drawing a lot of current consider a plug and socket arrangement
well i dont think a tray is either exposed or extraneous

it is not part of any electrical equipment (so cant be exposed conductive part)

and is unlikely to be an extraneous conductive part, unless its attatched to structural steelwork etc

Trouble with supp bonding, it is not always safer to do it, it is safer not to do it

it could be entriely isoalted from the electrical system, but you are 'introducing' a possible fault path by bonding?

why do i feel a big discussion coming on:p
 
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wayne

oh we love these "discussions":p
extraneous conductive parts are liable to introduce a potential from outside the equipotential zone and need equipotential bonding not supplementry bonding
with regards tray ,i'm just quoting definitions, bond /dont bond the choice is yours
 
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sparkyork

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  • #29
cheers guys, guess its always gonna be someone does it this way and another that way, when i was working in nottingham converting an old school in to appartments they had us 10mm bonding all the rsj's as well.
dont know what to do for the best really, i can see how it can be a problem bonding the tray but can also see a problem i f i dont! lol.

as with the lighting, theres gonna be 3 banks of 2no 150w hid's ( i think!) so prsuming klix will be suffiicent, im also toying with the idea of giving these 3 lighting banks there own supplys as well (remembering your recent thread wayne about problems with these on a smaller scale tho)

should i worry about the klix connection been probably really hard to get to once its all finished? then again what happens at other commercial buildings same thing init really

cheers

rich
 
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Shakey

oh we love these "discussions":p
extraneous conductive parts are liable to introduce a potential from outside the equipotential zone and need equipotential bonding not supplementry bonding
with regards tray ,i'm just quoting definitions, bond /dont bond the choice is yours
hmmmm Wayne old chap, so why do we supp bond extraneous in bathrooms then?:p

or did before the 17th:)
 
W

wayne

once the "kliks" made and tested then it just plug /unplug the klik doesnt need touching
the problem i had with was one with an uncommon design(f**k im doing some long words) not commonly used
 
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sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #32
ahh i see, the light fittings arnt on site yet, but like you say therll be a plug in the actual fitting coming from the klickety klix so thats ok then. in your opinion would it be beneficial having the main part of the shop on seperate mcbs for the lighting, like i said above? ive got enough spare ways in the board so...

ps on the e/lighting side i think im just gonna do a couple of circtuit straight from the board with key switches positioned appropriately.

rich
 
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wayne

hmmmm Wayne old chap, so why do we supp bond extraneous in bathrooms then?:p

or did before the 17th:)
without getting tied in regulation knots ,your talking about bonding in addition to the main within a special installation,
tray is still defined as exposed:)

ahh i see, the light fittings arnt on site yet, but like you say therll be a plug in the actual fitting coming from the klickety klix so thats ok then. in your opinion would it be beneficial having the main part of the shop on seperate mcbs for the lighting, like i said above? ive got enough spare ways in the board so...

ps on the e/lighting side i think im just gonna do a couple of circtuit straight from the board with key switches positioned appropriately.

rich
someone more used to shopfitting desgn(tony?)can advise you best there
 
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Shakey

without getting tied in regulation knots ,your talking about bonding in addition to the main within a special installation,
tray is still defined as exposed:)


someone more used to shopfitting desgn(tony?)can advise you best there
is it Wayne, think about it, why is tray exposed?

does it meet the defenition:rolleyes:
 
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sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #36
what reg number are your guys referring to here?
 
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Shakey

im talking definitions see post 26
ok wayne,

exposed conductive part:

"a conductive part of equipment which can be touched and which is not a live part but which may become live under fault conditions"

(i know you know it Wayne, this is so everyone else can see straight off what we are discussing;))

looking at equipment (electrical equipment) are you saying it will come under 'accessory':rolleyes:?

Is it an item for "distribution or utilisation of electrical energy"?:rolleyes:

lets say i have a metal beam in the ceiling in the roof an factory. It is not connected to the structural steelwork so is not extraneous

If there is no cables near it, then it would not be an exposed conductive part

But if a lay a cable along it, would it then be an exposed conductive part????

And heres another thing

we are discussing BONDING the tray

but we also agree that it is not extraneous, so if it is an exposed conductive part, then connecting it to the MET would be via a CPC (ie earthing) by the regs defenition

if you were coneecting it an extraneous conductive part, (or another exposed conductive part) then that would be SUPPLEMENTARY bonding

You could not BOND it to the MET

so where is he connecting it to?


hmmmm, interesting one this:)

i have heard this argument before about back boxes as well
 
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wayne

part of the definition of electrical equipment states ; wiring systems, accessories, appliances and luminaires.
exposed conductive parts are connected using just a protective conductor(411.3.1.1)
if you use the beam as part of you wiring system by definition it becomes exposed conductive part (by strict definition use common sense)
supplementry bonding is in addition to main bonding


back boxes ...see snags and solutions earthing and bonding (3rd edit)snag 21
shakeys my hero:D
 
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Shakey

part of the definition of electrical equipment states ; wiring systems, accessories, appliances and luminaires.
exposed conductive parts are connected using just a protective conductor(411.3.1.1)
if you use the beam as part of you wiring system by definition it becomes exposed conductive part (by strict definition use common sense)
supplementry bonding is in addition to main bonding


back boxes ...see snags and solutions earthing and bonding (3rd edit)snag 21
shakeys my hero:D
i will dig it out tommorow Wayne and have a look, I had my mate, who is the area engineer for the NIC around for tea and bickies today, should have brought it up with him.....we shared some interesting view points.....:p

oh and Wayne, you are my hero as well

*sniffs*
 
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jonboy1

have carried out projects in shopping centres and have found it a lot quicker using pirelli FP200 cable. Easier to strip but more expensive to buy. Don't try the other cheaper stuff as some idiot decided it was a good idea to put cloth, aluminium foil and plastic inside the cable to make it harder to strip!
 
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sparkyork

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  • #42
ok doh key, its very interewsting i must say, so is the tray coming under exposed conductive part and can be connected via cpc? does this mean for example i can just come off one of my 16a commando sockets with an earth connection to the tray?

had a good day today and got most of the conduit up, and a nice dollop of concrete dust in me eye! y didnt i wear goggles :-(
 
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wayne

hi jonboy good to see this thread getting back on track,shakeys the wind beneath my wings
and you sparkyork
 
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Shakey

ok doh key, its very interewsting i must say, so is the tray coming under exposed conductive part and can be connected via cpc? does this mean for example i can just come off one of my 16a commando sockets with an earth connection to the tray?

had a good day today and got most of the conduit up, and a nice dollop of concrete dust in me eye! y didnt i wear goggles :-(
'tis interesting aint it?

well if the tray is an exposed conductive part (and its still an 'if) then it would HAVE to be connected to the MET via a CPC, as i have said it could be not be bonded, main or supplementary

So if its via a CPC, then presumably you would have to give it at least an R2 check and include it on your schedule of test results - but against which circuit I wonder:rolleyes:

and commando sockets, surely you mean BS EN 60309-2 (BS4343) old chap

Shakeys note to self - *get out more* :p
 
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sparkyork

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  • #45
yeah tho's are the ones! lol the old 4343's!

mmm, im gonna have 7 or 8, or maybe more circuits running on this tray!

say i did it against circuit 1 for example; refridgerator circuit, are you saying that on the R1 + R2 test on this circuit that i would have to add the tray resistance to the R2 of this particular circuit? and connect from the earthing block within the 4343 to the tray via a suitable crimp connection?

i would have to do this on the other side of the building as there are 2 power trays that are not connected to each other.

rich

ps. bloody eye still killing me!
 
W

wayne

rich,
i am not an expert
411.3.1.1 just says "a protective conductor"it doesn't specify any circuit
have a read post your thoughts
 
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sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #47
still reading the big red book, in chapter 54; 542.4.1 item (iii) functional earthing conductors (if required)....im now looking at 543.1.4 table 54.7, i know this table is where you decide a 25mm incoming tails supply has a 16mm main earthing cable, however, if it turns out that a cpc is required to be fitted to the tray then could it be that ill need to add up the sizes of line conductors on my tray and work out the size of the cpc from there and run this back to the MET...

im getting confused to say the least! lol! might just get rid of the tray and buy some 6 x 1 timber!
 
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wayne

trays fine ,
sparks usually bond it to either another exposed conductive part or a cpc eventually bonding back to the earthbar usually 4mm but dont ask me where in the regs this is!!
 
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tony.towa

Hi Rich

Just been catching up on your shop, from what I see it should be used by customs and excise cos it looks like it's going to be a "Bonded Store". Sorry about that but I feel better now.

Looking back you had some question about the wiring for the lighting in the store. If you want to let me know the details of the floor area number of fittings (including size and style) and what ideas there are for the layout I will have a look for you.

Cheers
Tony
 
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sparkyork

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  • #51
ha he lol!

cheers tony, the front area of the shop measures about 12m x 7.3m and is 5.5m high, the custromer has been in contact with jcc i beleive and im also led to beleive he's going for a 150w pendant style fitting(thnk metal halide variety). he's told me hes getting 6 of these for this front area and ive have installed 3 conduit runs from the tray up and over the cieling to these rough positions (current spacing is like a "6" on a dominoe piece! ive spaced these as equally as i deemed wise to and there is a bit of movement if need be. (not too much tho!) the height is gonna be one consideration i guess.

the back end of the shop is gonna be a mezzanine floor area with grid style floo's (4 tube variety), the numbes of these arnt confirmed yet as its not even built yet etc and ive also told him to get some of these with e'lighting as well.

any suggestions always welcome!!

rich
 
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tony.towa

From what you have posted previously I reckon you already have an idea but my thoughts are.

Divide the standard fittings and run them off two seperate breakers. Run the e/lights off a third breaker. I would have the actual switching controlled through a contactor (240volt coil the A1 fed from the same supply as the e/lights). By doing this a ballast blowing will only take out a max of 50% lighting in the shop and the actual load at the wall switches will be kept to a minimum. It is also easier to add extra lighting at a later date. You can also split the load between phases without having a 415 potential at the switches. With the contactor control voltage off the same feed as the e/lights a contactor failure should bring on the e/lights.

If your domino design is set up one third width of room distance between wall and first row you may find that you will have to move the fittings slightly towards the walls to get an even light spread. This depends a lot on the actual reflector type fitted to what I am assuming are the commercial style Hibay fittings.

Sorry if I have been trying to teach granny to suck eggs but hope it helps or gives you a laugh.

Cheers

Tony.
 
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sparkyork

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  • #53
thats great chees tony, i was thinking about the need for a contactor or not as well, not sure how much current these lights pull but like you say if its on a contactor then its easy to sort, spesh not having 400v at the switches as well!
so you reckong i just want two rows of three fed by individual mcbs. all via a contactor system.
 
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tony.towa

Hi Rich

That sounds fine but you can play round with all sorts of options by using a contactor. If you put the feed to the mez lights through the third pole and used a secure or key switch for the contactor control this could be situated by the staff entry/exit point allowing a last man total switch off of the lighting. You can then run this feed through your local switching points for the mez lighting, Obviously if this area is to be in use when the shop is not lit it will not be suitable.

Lots to think about and possibly impress your client with.
 
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sparkyork

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  • #55
lots of ideas, i like it!

too much too think about tho, its starting to do my head in, spesh when im trying to get to sleep! not gonna be there till monday now as ive got some metal in my eye from drilling the conduiit on the cieling, been in and got the metal removed but its left a rust ring in my iris now!

rich
 
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tony.towa

Take it steady Rich and have a good weekend. Reckon Wayne's right about the goggles but there again I keep leaving mine in the van and remember them when something catches me.:cool:
 
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sparkyork

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  • #58
yeah should be great fun getting me eye ball scraped! thanks guys and yeah im gonna wear em all the time now! think it must of been the reinforcing metal of the cienling i was drilling into!

rich
 
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wayne

worse time i had with something in the eye was a simple peice of dust while waiting for a bus (a while ago)by the time i got off the bus i couldnt keep either eye open had to cross the street blind and hop on another bus for the hospital .
 
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sparkyork

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  • #60
right then, ive abandonned the main shop area now till they build the mezzanine etc.
im now upstairs in the yoga room and office and wc rooms!

im having to do it surface in the yoga room, ive got power cables and lv cables to run through this area to rellavent accesories. im using 50x50 trunking and dropping out in pvc conduit etc, i know you have to keep these cables a good 50mm apart (power & lv) but is there any need to keep individual trunking this far apart?

would look so much better if i could run all trunking along side each other! does the plastic act as any kind of interference get ridderofer! lol

Eyes ok now, had to have my cornea grinded abit to get rid of the rust ring.

rich
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #61
any thoughts on the above or do i keep the trunking 2" away from the power trunking?

rich
 
W

wattsup

Friggin hell, you sure it's not Leeds city centre you is wiring?...could have wired the White Rose Centre by now -;)
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #63
ha he lol! ive only been there 39 hours plus 2 days this week so far!!

sorting the final bit a trunking out 2moro still unsure about spacings??

rich
 
T

tony.towa

Hi rich

Is it standard tv cable, i.e. coax from an aerial, or is it satellite or cable tv. Is the signal being amplied and how many points are you feeding.

Sorry to be a pain but there can be different solutions depending on what is actually being done with the tv cable.

No accidents today?:rolleyes:

Tony
 
W

wayne

mark,
band one and band two cables ,further info is available in the old osg page 64.
but unless insulated to the highest voltage present they must be seperated by an insulating or earted partition .therefore earthed metal trunking or plastic .no mention of seperation distance otherwise
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #66
nice one cheers wayne, it'll look so much better runnung along side the trunking ive already put up!
Tony, i think you may of miss read an earlier post, this other trunking is lv (did you see this and thought it mean tv?) there will prob be a couple of coax's running in the low voltage trunking, for some cctv cameras, maybe 3 max. the whole job seems to be make it up as you go along (bit annoying really, trying to allow for the unseen!)

there's gonna be a couple of plasme tv's dotted about for advertising as well, whilst trying to be sensible im toying with the idea of running the signal cables for these tv's in cat5 as there are devices that can transmit HD over ethernet. gonna run these in the LV trunking as well back to the office.

also will be incoming BT and incoming broadband cables, again these will prob be in cat5.

standard 4 pair security cable also in the trunking for theivin scum alarm.

fp200 running in lv trunking picking up call point, detector and sounder aswell.

thats it for now i think! must say im chuffed to bits i can run all this in trunking next to me mains power trunking, will post some more pics 2moro.

ps. eye is better now, after the ground 1 leyer of me cornea away! need to always bag ya eyes up before slapping it up! lol

rich
 
T

tony.towa

Hi Rich

It's been a few days since anything was posted about the shop.

Just being nosey and wondering how it all went in the end

Cheers

Tony
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #69
hi tony, i was there monday and gonna be there tomorrow as well. its a bit steady at the minute. just waiting for the mezanine floor to go in then i can start lashing loads a cables in. ill post some pics of the back rooms tommorow as well, where ive got some plastic trunking running around abit.
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #70
hi all gonna get some more pics up asap, got another quick question. (cant be bothered readin books to clarify!!)

ive got 3 conduits (plastic) running up the walls and going across the ceiling to the outlets for the Klix fittings. i was thinking about running these in singles as if anything happens later on they could be replaced easier than trying to drag a T & E out. if i did them in singles would it be ok to terminate t & e into singles inside a conduit through box (in connector blocks)? and secondly do they need to be double insulated singles or can i use single insulated singles.

she ses singles on the singles sea shore

rich
 
T

tony.towa

No problem running single insulated singles in the conduit. Are you planning to run the T&E along the tray and into the through box or are you running the conduit back to the board.
Whilst it is not the way I would do it if you use a short piece of conduit, female adaptor and a struffing gland (assuming it's plastic conduit) I should think you would be okay (perhaps others can confirm). Make sure the through box is secure though.
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #72
cheers tony, yeah the twin n earth is on the tray and im coming off this into the conduit (25mm), i did think about going into an adaptable box so theres plenty of room etc.

to be honest im a little bit pi$$ed off that im having to use twin on the tray, im having to drill extra holes on the tray to get tie raps in the right places for the cables etc, so wasting time doing this (dont think he's saved any money by using cheaper cable!!) and id be able to terminate "properly" into accessories, dont like pealing off the tray into stuff with twin, it just does look right, although you'd do the same with a SWA its just more suited to it!!

is there any other way of coming from the tray to an accessory other than the above? dont think there is really but i am a bit thick!!

rich
 
T

tony.towa

Off the top of my head nothing comes to mind, will have a think and get back to you.

T&E and tray are not the ideal but it's not an ideal world.

If I come up with anything I will post it for you.
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #74
evening all, jobs coming on now, at the minute im under the mazanine area sorting that bit out. its a grid ceiling going in with 2x42w downlights in one end, prob about 10 of them. and in the other is prob going to be 2 rows of 3 grid style floo's think these will be 3ft units with more than likely 4 tubes per unit, im using a contactor for the lights at the front of the shop and was wondering if it would be best tp put these on a contactor as well?? i know wattage wise im looking at around 120watt per fitting times 6, so im within breaker limits at 6 amp, how much starting current do these things generally take (never much good at working phasor diagrams out!)

rich
 
T

tony.towa

Hi Rich,

Check on your fitting size. The standard size for a suspended ceiling grid is uitable for 600 x 600 modules (2ft tubes) 600 x 1200 modules are available (4ft tubes). If the modules you are thinking of using are 900 x 600 it is likely to drive the guy doing the ceiling spare as he will have to put in extra T strut and it will not be inline with the main framework. He will also be cutting more tiles.
Whether you put the modules on a contactor is up to you, a lot depends on what your customer wants. If he is after a last man out "kill" switch then they will need to be linked with the main lighting contactor circuit. If not then no real problem without a contactor. Depending on whose accessories you are using make sure that the terminal capability is ok. Some of the cheaper switches only have a terminal current capability of 6amps.
You can always dedicate individual swiches to individual rows of modules, which is the norm nowadays in commercial properties.
Hope it helps.
Tony
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #76
hi tony, yeah the floos are the 600x1200 ones (so the customer said, he's providing it all!) ill not bother messing with contactor on these then will just have em on 2 switches feeding individual rows. im using mk grid switches, think there rated at 10a so should be fine.

cheers
 
W

wayne

just caught up with this thread .jobs looks good ,some neat solutions to some problems
where can i cet one of those cable reelers??:confused::confused:
 
T

tony.towa

If you mean the one on the 5th picture I can tell you that most supermarkets have them at their backdoor after dark. You have to provide your own cross bar though!!!!
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #81
yes there very versatile and can take multiple cable reels, just a bit of a problem transporting them, unless you towed it! lol

be back there 2moro fpr a couple of days, he's dragging his heels on getting the lighting sorted out tho

what about main equipotntial bonding to incoming water when ive got 3 phase, is it still just a 10mm?
 
Last edited:
W

wayne

yes there very versatile and can take multiple cable reels, just a bit of a problem transporting them, unless you towed it! lol

be back there 2moro fpr a couple of days, he's dragging his heels on getting the lighting sorted out tho

what about main equipotntial bonding to incoming water when ive got 3 phase, is it still just a 10mm?


what size are your tails ??table 54.8 for tncs
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #83
cheers wayne ill have a look, tails are 25mm.
 
S

sparkyork

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #85
still same figure of 10mm when its 3 phase? also getting to the point where im gonna start wiring the main board in, would i be right in thinking that im gonna need 30 rcbo's?
 
P

PAUL M

still 10mm mate,refer to table 54.8 as wayne says .for Neutral conductor c.s.a. of 35mm or less 10mm is required.
 
W

wayne

the reason is ; on a single to earth fault your voltage is still 230
 

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