Omission of overload protection for fixed loads.

[Darkwood]

Its funny how this thread i set up has consequently bounced around all the main Electrical forums lol.... Again! You'd think that on the IET forum the regulation architects would see this repeated confusing issue and subsequently amend it to either make it clearer or address the domestic situe with a cover note on this regulation.

My take on this is if the regs were simple to follow then the IET wouldn't make any money on their little franchise in on site guides... conspiracy theory!

 

[Engineer54]

Its funny how this thread i set up has consequently bounced around all the main Electrical forums lol.... Again! You'd think that on the IET forum the regulation architects would see this repeated confusing issue and subsequently amend it to either make it clearer or address the domestic situe with a cover note on this regulation.

My take on this is if the regs were simple to follow then the IET wouldn't make any money on their little franchise in on site guides... conspiracy theory!

The Reg's havent been written in plain English since the 14th ed!! Now it needs umpteen OSG's to give readers a clue of what it's saying!! lol!!

 

[telectrix]

The heater manufacturers will have to comply to their own BS standards, the flex will be compatible for the load of the heater so they won't be responsible, clearly the issue here is a connection problem or a failed FCU by matter of interest i bet the multi-stranded cable termination into the fcu wasn't appropriately crimped for termination so if so then the installers fault, if it was down to failure of the FCU then the FCU manufacturers fault, proving it and laying blame isn't usually worth the hassle on a simple repair. For your query regarding using 433.3 they are not subject to the BS7671 but thats not to say they dont have this regulation in their own BS standards as clearly they have omitted overload protection of the flex itself. Having said this this wasn't caused by overload but thermal conductivity from a poor contact or connection in the FCU which regardless of any overload protection this would have created the same effect even with a fuse rated spot on for the load.

agree entirely. the 2 things are not related. my call out was to the damaged termination in the FCU. just didn't like the fact that a 2kW heater was running on 0.75mm flex with a 13A fuse. i would have expected 1.0mm at least.

 

[Darkwood]

Your probably refering to CCC of flex in the BS7671 i deal will many different kinds of flex and its misleading the it might seem too small been 0.75 but different brands and constructs of the insualtion and sheath give some cables a higher CCC comparable to say a 1.0mm standard pvc flex.

 

[Outspoken]

circuit diagrams are your friend here.

there are many of them available via google, and I've just checked several to be sure. Regardless of that though, the point you were making is wrong as even an overheating element won't add more than 0.2% or so to the load of the circuit.

Sorry for the late reply, took advantage of some clear weather today to take the ankle biters out...till it ruddy rained anyway!

Anyway, I checked our shower thoroughly, and can confirm the following are installed;

2 x Thermocouples
1 x manual reset bimetal thermal sensor
1 x Pressure transducer
1 x flow sensor
1 x overload sensor (magnetic)

Based on this I have to concur will all comments by Gavin and initially by DW. With this level of protection in the unit then realistically an RCD protecting the Unit would be sufficient for compliance with the Regs at the basic fault protection level, although personally I would still, if I installed a shower, use a correctly rated RCBO to cover both bases.

Many thanks Guys, It's always good to learn and I love things that make me investigate and perhaps, as in this case, change how I think about something...Nice one.

 

[Toonlad]

Round of applause, good read, good interpretation, and very good technical knowledge. :clap::clap::clap: Still dont know what it all means lmao.

My personal take on most domestics this day, is far to many sparks just put in a certain size of cable and circuit breaker, as its the norm for that type of circuit. Ask them why a particular size and they will answer, Thats what the regs state or thats what i was tought.

 

[Stroppy]

Lights = 1mm
Sockets/Immersion = 2.5
Shower/cooker = 6.

Easy!

 

[Guest55]

Round of applause, good read, good interpretation, and very good technical knowledge. :clap::clap::clap: Still dont know what it all means lmao.

My personal take on most domestics this day, is far to many sparks just put in a certain size of cable and circuit breaker, as its the norm for that type of circuit. Ask them why a particular size and they will answer, Thats what the regs state or thats what i was tought.

to be honest thats the whole point of the OSG , a wire by numbers book for the domestic installers.
;-)

 

[Gavin A]

Sorry for the late reply, took advantage of some clear weather today to take the ankle biters out...till it ruddy rained anyway!

Anyway, I checked our shower thoroughly, and can confirm the following are installed;

2 x Thermocouples
1 x manual reset bimetal thermal sensor
1 x Pressure transducer
1 x flow sensor
1 x overload sensor (magnetic)

Based on this I have to concur will all comments by Gavin and initially by DW. With this level of protection in the unit then realistically an RCD protecting the Unit would be sufficient for compliance with the Regs at the basic fault protection level, although personally I would still, if I installed a shower, use a correctly rated RCBO to cover both bases.

Many thanks Guys, It's always good to learn and I love things that make me investigate and perhaps, as in this case, change how I think about something...Nice one.

fair play.

 

[Darkwood]

Does that mean i win this round then outspoken :bucktooth: lol only joking ...... if it causes differing opinions then it serves its purpose as a thread and we all learn regardless of whether initially the OP is wrong or not.... we are taught the basics but not interpretation and i find this site is a gem for changing how you see things ...yes ive been wrong many times too :!blank:

 

[Outspoken]

Totally agree DW, if we can debate and use our collective experience to make life a little better for all then that is a success. I do not see such debates about winning or losing, unless we allow it to iterate into a slanging match, as you see on other sites, and then we all lose.

 

[Edd]

Interesting Thread, Now im wiring a 9kw shower, gona back it up by a 40 A MCB... Ref method 103 and 101 as im going up through a insulated wall and across the loft... Now What cable shall I use!!! (page 340).. Dam Thats gona be fun squeezing in a 45A D/P switch!!!

 

[Outspoken]

Interesting Thread, Now im wiring a 9kw shower, gona back it up by a 40 A MCB... Ref method 103 and 101 as im going up through a insulated wall and across the loft... Now What cable shall I use!!! (page 340).. Dam Thats gona be fun squeezing in a 45A D/P switch!!!

Claim you only did the 5 week course and use a bit of 4.0mm² SWA!!

 

[Gavin A]

for reference, I just checked, and this method is allowed under both BS7671 and MCS guide for solar PV installations, though I'd not realised it was before - it's actually spelled out in the new PV guide.

In very many cases the current limiting nature of the PV array and inverter(s) omits the requirements for overload protection and therefore the designer only need to consider fault current protection.

Only thing is, I'm a little wary about relying entirely on the suppliers fuse for fault protection, as would be the case if we were installing to a henley block on the tails, as it would blow the power for the entire house if there were a fault, and need the supplier calling out to replace fuse (technically anyway).

 

[Edd]

edited...

 

[Engineer54]

I this tread still going!! lol!!

 

[Darkwood]

I this tread still going!! lol!!

Exactly how drunk was you when you wrote this! :smartass2:

 

[Engineer54]

Exactly how drunk was you when you wrote this! :smartass2:

I'm not that much of a drinker actually, unless were talking coffee!!!! But i can, i suppose put it down to advancing years!! ...lol!!

 

[Darkwood]

I'm not that much of a drinker actually, unless were talking coffee!!!! But i can, i suppose put it down to advancing years!! ...lol!!

Have a chat with Marvo! ..... after his senile thread i think there's an opportunity to open a new club on .... maybe a 'Well past the post' club :sick:

 

[Engineer54]

Have a chat with Marvo! ..... after his senile thread i think there's an opportunity to open a new club on .... maybe a 'Well past the post' club :sick:

That's not very kind, ......On Marvo!! lol!! Another excuse i can latch onto, was that it was early in the morning, ...and hadn't yet got to my second morning coffee!! lol!!

 

[Darkwood]

Only meant in a jovial nature no offence intended ..... im only 40 myself and my body can no longer keep up with my mind things now ache where i never thought aches would occur........ i personally know these knees will be replaced if i live to a ripe old age

 

[Outspoken]

Only meant in a jovial nature no offence intended ..... im only 40 myself and my body can no longer keep up with my mind things now ache where i never thought aches would occur........ i personally know these knees will be replaced if i live to a ripe old age

Listen to you, I have 8 years on you, can still jog 20 miles with a 30kg pack on my back in 2.5 hours. I regularly abseil and jog for 10 miles every 2 days...and about once a month do a 50 miles bike ride...

Over the years I have picked up injuries during another aspect of my life that resulted in broken arms (4), broken legs (3), broken ribs (9 total), shattered pelvis, 7 skull fractures, stabbed (Twice), shot (once) that resulted in fractured sternum (and 4 of the ribs), not forgetting dislocated shoulders, ankles, hip and elbow...and two compacted vertebrae.

Age is no excuse...

 

[KAS1]

In the other aspect of your life did it involve being fired from a cannon ?

 

[Darkwood]

I know who you are now Outspoken ....... your the famous Evel Knievel..... We're not worthy!!!!! :smartass2:

p.s. your not alone.. i broke my finger nail last week.... it even drew blood but im ok so dont panic.

 

[Outspoken]

In the other aspect of your life did it involve being fired from a cannon ?

Erh, No...sometimes foolish, but never a damned death wish!!

I know who you are now Outspoken ....... your the famous Evel Knievel..... We're not worthy!!!!! :smartass2:

p.s. your not alone.. i broke my finger nail last week.... it even drew blood but im ok so dont panic.

I'd settle for his money, but not his body thanks...I think he broke just about ever bone in his body in the end and could hardly walk..

Sorry to hear about your finger, hope it gets better soon.

The other part of my life was 20 Years in the Reserve Para's which involved tours in Iraq, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone, The Balkans and numerous other places on active service...

 

[Darkwood]

Got many a mate in services so on that particular note many respects to yourself, if only the Jeremy Kyle scum could appreciate what been a contribution to the nation actually meant!!

 

[Engineer54]

No disrespect intended here, but it always strikes me funny that when anyone mentions being in the armed forces it's never just as your every day typical ''Squaddie'', it's always Para's, Special Forces or some other elite troop or whatever!! lol!!

Never been in the armed forces myself mind, though i have done a couple of small MOD projects in Germany. They were on RAF bases, and quite early on too, during the so-called ''cold war'' era...

 

[Darkwood]

I do know a few lets say rejects who got kicked out who hang around town acting all tough throwing the verbal lingo about serving time in afghan etc .... but what i have learned is the actual real front-liners etc dont easily volunteer info and brag as such when on leave they prefer to put it to block it out except the occasional funny story, outspoken took a few posts to open up so ill say hes legit and one of our proud countrymen.

 

[Engineer54]

I do know a few lets say rejects who got kicked out who hang around town acting all tough throwing the verbal lingo about serving time in afghan etc .... but what i have learned is the actual real front-liners etc dont easily volunteer info and brag as such when on leave they prefer to put it to block it out except the occasional funny story, outspoken took a few posts to open up so ill say hes legit and one of our proud countrymen.

Not saying one way or the other here to be honest. Just saying, that you rarely come across your everyday run of the mill squaddie...

 

[Darkwood]

Got to disagree there if you live near a few barracks then they are a plenty ....as i said got alot of mates in the various forces from front line to bomb squad and they tend to want to get away from the job when on leave.... you probably see many a stranger that is on leave but because they dont have a banner saying they are you never think about it.... i always give caution to those who gob off about as its usually someone that is a loose cannon because they haven't been de-briefed for normal life or they are total bullsh.....s who either haven't seen action or been given the boot.

 

[Engineer54]

Got to disagree there if you live near a few barracks then they are a plenty ....as i said got alot of mates in the various forces from front line to bomb squad and they tend to want to get away from the job when on leave.... you probably see many a stranger that is on leave but because they dont have a banner saying they are you never think about it.... i always give caution to those who gob off about as its usually someone that is a loose cannon because they haven't been de-briefed for normal life or they are total bullsh.....s who either haven't seen action or been given the boot.

Nope, i'm talking purely about guy's/characters that i've come across on the many various projects overseas. Never lived near a barracks, in fact the closest would be Dakalia (not sure if i spelt that correctly) barracks in Cyprus, which is a good 30min drive from me. ( do a really nice fish and chips down there too)...lol!!


Some of these characters have been really amusing and with some dam good stories, that you could honestly listen too all night. But many of them, when you add up the time lines, they just don't add up too well, if you know what i mean...lol!! I can't remember any of them not being in one of the elite forces/regiments or another though.

 

[Deleted member 72666]

Nope, i'm talking purely about guy's/characters that i've come across on the many various projects overseas. Never lived near a barracks, in fact the closest would be Dakalia (not sure if i spelt that correctly) barracks in Cyprus, which is a good 30min drive from me. ( do a really nice fish and chips down there too)...lol!!

You're right on both counts! You haven't spelt it right! It's 'Dhekelia' and the fish n chips are great! Always head down there for some when in Cyprus.

 

[Outspoken]

If I may proffer an opinion here gents, being Engineers or at least in an engineering field means that for the most part you won't encounter too many "everyday" squaddies, or as we call them, "Crap Hats" because many, in this modern world, are not educating in the fields we move in, many become truck drivers, bus drivers and quite a number join the Prison Service, Police, Fire and similar roles.

I would always be wary of anyone claiming to have been in the "special forces" because generally these Guys tend to just mention their unit that they would have originally joined the SF from and would have RTU'ed before leaving the services, however whilst the Para's are a specialist force, they are not special forces, although we worked closely with both the SAS and SBS/Commando's and many SAS troopers/officers may have started out in the Para's or at least an Air Assault unit if not the Para's directly.

I mentioned what I had done simply because of the injuries I mentioned, I did nothing spectacular and deserve no different treatment to either of you, I am a UK tax payer (OK so E54 buggered off to China), but it is not something I discuss, to the annoyance of my other half who likes to pry, and whilst I will occasionally mention it, I never go into details, I rarely even socialise with former colleagues to be honest, except on November 11th and other special days.

Now perhaps we had better get back to discussing electrical matters before the Mods give us all a shock for being off topic..

 

[Dan]

Just bumping some threads in the Electrical Wiring Theories and Regulations forum category here on our Electricians Forums. If this specific topic isn't current, just ignore it, it'll drop off the list in no time. However, if it's something you'd like to contribute to, feel free to reply and bring it back into current discussion.