Oven supply question

[muggins]

When our Victorian semi was tarted-up in the 1980s, the cooker circuit to the kitchen was ripped out but fortunately since we moved in in 2000 the oven we've been using (with the gas hob) has been OK on a 13A plug. That oven is now well past its best before, and the replacement the wife wants is specified as 3.2kW. The fuse rating quoted is 16A.

One of the 32A MCB's in the consumer unit feeds the sockets upstairs and the 4 in the kitchen (but not the rest of the ground floor). The maximum likely load upstairs at any one time is an electric blanket, a clock radio and a vacuum cleaner. In the kitchen, it's kettle, toaster, ordinary front-loading washing machine, bog standard fridge/freezer and the new oven.

Being dependant on my State Pension + benefits, I need to sort out the supply to this oven ASAP without dipping much more into what's left of my savings. Electrician A has quoted £270 incl VAT to run a new supply from the consumer unit to a cooker switch in the cupboard alongside the oven (but using mini trunking along the hall skirting rather than diving under the floor). Electrician B has quoted £60 incl VAT to add a 20A cooker switch to the existing kitchen ring main, on the basis that in practice we're never going to have all elements of the oven drawing max current at once, and if they ever did, worst case would be the MCB trips, which is no big deal.

I'm obviously keen on Plan B but ... is there a potential snag to it which isn't obvious to me?

 

[Andy78]

Plan B is a bodge. There is specific guidance in the wiring regulations that any cooking load over 2kW should not be permanently connected into a socket ring circuit to avoid overloading any one portion of the ring circuit. This could be construed as being non compliant.
You could save money by choosing an oven 2kW or less that functions on a standard plug. Most single fan ovens will be like this.

 

[muggins]

Ah. Hmmm ... unfortunately the wife has set her heart on this particular oven and it's being delivered Monday.

I guess we're snookered then.

Glad I asked though. Thank you.

 

[Andy78]

Ah. Hmmm ... unfortunately the wife has set her heart on this particular oven and it's being delivered Monday.

I guess we're snookered then.

Glad I asked though. Thank you.

It'll have to be a dedicated circuit I'm afraid. You could see if you could get other quotes, although £270 all in doesn't sound too bad.
At least you can blame the wife

 

[muggins]

It'll have to be a dedicated circuit I'm afraid. You could see if you could get other quotes, although £270 all in doesn't sound too bad.
At least you can blame the wife

Oh I already have done, Andy78. Believe me I have.

Anyhow, we've just had another sparky here to quote, and he's raised another issue. At present, the existing oven is wired to a 13A plug top which lives in one side of a twin socket on the wall near the hob. The other half of that socket is occupied by the plug top feeding the gas hob ignition. The wires to both come up through holes in the back of the worktop, and this has always looked naff.

A new cooker supply taken to a switch in the cupboard alongside the oven gets ride of one of those wires, and I thought we could lose the other by simply wiring the hob ignition to the new cooker switch. But apparently not.

Is that right, or can it actually be done somehow? The objective is simply to lose the remaining wire running to the wall socket.

 

[Dave OCD]

For the hob ignition a switched fused spur could be fitted right next to the new oven isolator in the cupboard with the supply looped from the oven isolator. The hob ignition circuit & flex is usually protected by a 3a fuse and this can be fitted in the fused connection unit.

 

[Dustydazzler]

OP

You can do away with both plug tops and get the new oven and hob ignition hard wired in

 

[Andy78]

I agree, a FCU taken from the cooker circuit would be an appropriate way to get rid of the plug top above counter level for the hob.

 

[muggins]

Thank you, gentlemen. Electrician no.3 was muttering lots about whether or not the busbar of the consumer unit was long enough for him to add the requisite MCB for the oven circuit and he ended up taking a photo of the unit.

It seemed to me that the way this was heading, the quote was perhaps going to include consumer unit replacement/modification, so I emailed him suggesting that perhaps he can remove the two surplus MCBs from the lighting section and shift the 80A trip for the sockets section to the right to make room for the new MCB on its left.

Waiting now to see what he quotes. Meanwhile, I'm still trying to find a 4th bod to quote us, number 2 and his £60 quote being now out of the running ...

 

[John clark]

Thank you, gentlemen. Electrician no.3 was muttering lots about whether or not the busbar of the consumer unit was long enough for him to add the requisite MCB for the oven circuit and he ended up taking a photo of the unit.

It seemed to me that the way this was heading, the quote was perhaps going to include consumer unit replacement/modification, so I emailed him suggesting that perhaps he can remove the two surplus MCBs from the lighting section and shift the 80A trip for the sockets section to the right to make room for the new MCB on its left.

Waiting now to see what he quotes. Meanwhile, I'm still trying to find a 4th bod to quote us, number 2 and his £60 quote being now out of the running ...

One of those time wasters who thinks it's ok to waste other people's time getting a dozen estimates .

 

[Markyd]

isnt a new cooker circuit notifiable?......and what about an rcd?

 

[muggins]

One of those time wasters who thinks it's ok to waste other people's time getting a dozen estimates .

Really? When I went to school, a dozen was 12 - not 3. But I do understand your attitude. I feel just the same way about tradesmen who say they'll be here at 10am to quote, then turn up an hour or more later, if at all. And the ones who do turn up, put on a show of being keen to do the job, and then don't even bother putting in an inflated quote to let you know they don't really want the job.

I could go on, but what do you reckon I should do? Accept the first quote and hope he might actually do the job to my satisfaction? Or do you reckon it's perhaps OK to get a second one? If so, what to do if those two quotes are, say, £240 and £330? Do I go for the first on the grounds of cost and hope I don't get a bodge, or for the second on the basis that for £90 more I might get a better job?

Or might it perhaps actually be OK in such circumstances to get a third quote in the hope of being able to eliminate one contender on price, then choose from the two remaining?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Try to use a local preferably recommended sparks.
Most sparks are pretty fair and will quote the job on face value.
It is always wise to get 2 quotes and if you still are not happy get a 3rd.
By which time you will get a good idea of the scale and cost of the works.
Imo you generally get a gut feel for someone, if they are going to be good or not.
We all have come across dodgy trades people , I had the misfortune when we purchased our current house to initial use a dodgy plumber handyman to do our bathroom make over.
He was utterly useless , we agreed a price for the entire job which was on the high side to begin with but the second he started he was phoning me every 2 hours saying he needed to add XYZ to his quote (£50 for this extra and that extra for things he ‘forgot’ he needed to buy)
I could smell a rat so asked him to stop work , we agreed to settle the 2 days work he already did on a day rate.
Fortunately I managed to find a superb plumber to finish the job off on time and bang on price.

 

[muggins]

Try to use a local preferably recommended sparks.
Most sparks are pretty fair and will quote the job on face value.
It is always wise to get 2 quotes and if you still are not happy get a 3rd.
By which time you will get a good idea of the scale and cost of the works.
Imo you generally get a gut feel for someone, if they are going to be good or not.

Couldn't agree more. I'm hoping number three turns up this morning as planned, and as soon as his quote's in, we can pick the winner and get the work done

 

[The Ghost]

Hi @muggins I don't know what inspired the comment re getting extra quotes, a bit unkind and unnecessary. Personally I always exhort potential customers to get another quote and at least three! It does pay to shop around no doubt. I think you are doing the right thing and it is in no way a waste of my time to come and give a quote or estimate it's part of the job. To put this in context I imagine the job you describe would be three quarters of a day at worst. I charge £245 domestic wise, per day. Materials would cost around £50 max. So that comes out at £230-£240 range. That would also include an Electrical Installation Certificate being a new circuit. Most domestic jobs involve people who do not have money or at least much to throw about and I understand they may feel that is a lot. This is why I suggest getting extra quotes. What I know that they don't is that my work will be a proper job and certificated at an honest price. And I know there are the £60 pounders out there but will you get a cert?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

My day rate is £230.
So with £50 materials, would be £280.

 

[muggins]

Interesting what you guys are saying your day rates are. We're in East Sussex, just over the order from Kent, and from what I can gather from neighbours the going rate hereabouts seems to be more like £300 + VAT.

 

[telectrix]

tip might be to get a spark who is not VAT registered. then you save something like £40 - £50 on the job price.

 

[muggins]

Well, this has turned out really interesting. Ignoring matey and his £60 bodge, we end up being quoted £308, £211 and £145. All three check out kosher, but only the highest-priced guy is VAT registered. My gut feeling about the other two is pretty much the same, so it's hard to think of a reason why we shouldn't go for the cheapest!

 

[telectrix]

check with both the 2 cheaper quotes whether you will get:
1. installation certificate.
2. notification to LABC. this generally entails the spark to be niceic.napit, stroma etc.

IMO, £145 is way too cheap. the £211 sounds in the right price bracket.

 

[muggins]

check with both the 2 cheaper quotes whether you will get:
1. installation certificate.
2. notification to LABC. this generally entails the spark to be niceic.napit, stroma etc.

IMO, £145 is way too cheap. the £211 sounds in the right price bracket.

Already checked and cheapest guy comes up 100%, established 1999 too. I have no idea how he makes a living at his prices, but that's his lookout

 

[muggins]

Deleted - post duplicated.

 

[Dustydazzler]

From my experience Quotes/estimates can vary dramatically

I have been shown estimates for electrical work by customers who have asked me to give them a second estimate for the work.

Board changes seem to vary pretty dramatically as does small works.

I get a feeling the very ‘high side’ quotes I see don’t really want the job.
For example £150 to put up a customer supplied pendant

 

[DPG]

One of those time wasters who thinks it's ok to waste other people's time getting a dozen estimates .

Normal advice would be for someone to get three quotes rather than just go for the first one surely??

 

[Ashley-Joseph]

Do it yourself and pay someone to come and test and inspect it.

 

[muggins]

Do it yourself and pay someone to come and test and inspect it.

Having in the past completely rewired a two-bed bungalow and a one-bed flat, that was my inital plan but two things put the mockers on that. One is my arthritis, and t'other is my uncertainty as to whether it's still legal for me to do that.

 

[littlespark]

I’m thinking the old cooker circuit that was removed in the past is still lurking somewhere under the kickboard or something.
If it’s in alright nick, could be reused ????

What did @Dan do with the optimistic button?

 

[Ashley-Joseph]

Having in the past completely rewired a two-bed bungalow and a one-bed flat, that was my inital plan but two things put the mockers on that. One is my arthritis, and t'other is my uncertainty as to whether it's still legal for me to do that.

You can do it but you have to contact building control to get permission and they will come and test it all for a small fee.

 

[Admin]

I’m thinking the old cooker circuit that was removed in the past is still lurking somewhere under the kickboard or something.
If it’s in alright nick, could be reused ????

What did @Dan do with the optimistic button?

Ate it mate.

 

[telectrix]

Having in the past completely rewired a two-bed bungalow and a one-bed flat, that was my inital plan but two things put the mockers on that. One is my arthritis, and t'other is my uncertainty as to whether it's still legal for me to do that.

perfectly legal for you to do it yourself. as long as you are competent to do it. maybe get a friend or family member to assist where the arthritis is a problem. you would be technically out of order by not notifying to local building control, but nobody's ever been prosecuted for that. if they did, the courts would grind to a halt with thousands of cases backlogged. part pee......poo.
(disclaimer., the above s only my opinion and not to be used for evidential purposes in any court of law unless presided over by the Borg)

 

[muggins]

I’m thinking the old cooker circuit that was removed in the past is still lurking somewhere under the kickboard or something ...

No such luck!

 

[muggins]

And ... just to give this thread a proper ending, cheapest sparky of three came round yesterday bang on promised time, and left three hours later having done us a first class job.

Decent bloke - civil, not rabbitting on all the time about how hard done to he is, not forever on his phone, and actually wiped his feet on the doormat every time he came in (he did have over-booties type things with him but I told him not to bother with them on account of the carpet's being replaced next week). Took pictures of various things as he was working and as he was finishing off, having asked beforehand if we were OK with him doing that.

He pointed out that we just need to be aware of a crack in a plastic moulding in the consumer unit (as opposed to telling us we need a new consumer unit), and left a very neat job clean and tidy with all required stickers and notices in place and BC informed.

Result - happy punters who will definitely use him again and will recommend him to anyone.

 

[Dustydazzler]

See...
There are a few good men out there

Not all con artists and shoddy work

 

[muggins]

See...
There are a few good men out there

Not all con artists and shoddy work

Yes indeed. And I forgot to say that I was reckoning on him finishing the job once the cooker point and socket was wired in, but he wasn't having any of that. He insisted on wiring the oven up and installing it so he could test the whole shebang.

Anyhow, thanks for your help with this, gentlemen. I'll be back in due course seeking your opinions on another bit of electrical work we're hoping to be able to afford.

 

[GeorgeCooke]

So you went for the bodge. Nothing to be proud of.

As said by Andy78: "There is specific guidance in the wiring regulations that any cooking load over 2kW should not be permanently connected into a socket ring circuit to avoid overloading any one portion of the ring circuit. This could be construed as being non compliant."

I'll be back in due course seeking your opinions on another bit of electrical work we're hoping to be able to afford.

Lets hope you will take notice of what we tell you next time!

 

[muggins]

So you went for the bodge. Nothing to be proud of.

No I didn't ...

... I'm still trying to find a 4th bod to quote us, number 2 and his £60 quote being now out of the running ...

... Lets hope you will take notice of what we tell you next time!

Oh I most certainly will. I'll just ignore any comments from one particular member here ...

 

[GeorgeCooke]

No I didn't ...

Sorry, I made a mistake.