Sanity check - replacing MCBs with RCBOs

[drjarmin]

Hi All

Wanted to get feedback on this idea.

I have 3 fuse boards which trip frequently whenever there is a lightening storm nearby. My electrician friend has suggested he swaps all the MCB's with RCBO's so that individual circuits trip rather than the whole board. Each board currently has a main RCB for protection - the proposal is to replace it with a 63A MCB.

1. Is this a good idea? I can't see a downside other than cost.

2. Any other thoughts on how to stop these boards tripping everytime there is a burst of lightening nearby?

Thanks!

 

[Knobhead]

Get another electrician before you get robbed blind.

 

[drjarmin]

Hi Tony

Do you mind to expand on that?

Thanks

 

[Plonker 3]

What actually trips, the fuses or the RCD switches?

 

[drjarmin]

Always the RCD. There is one per board. Can trip as often as 20 times in a night if there is a heavy thunderstorm.

 

[Octopus]

Always the RCD. There is one per board. Can trip as often as 20 times in a night if there is a heavy thunderstorm.

and how often does this occur?

 

[drjarmin]

and how often does this occur?

This year probably 20-25 times so far.

 

[telectrix]

i'd be getting a competent electrician to test the RCDs.

 

[Octopus]

This year probably 20-25 times so far.

In the UK??

 

[dingledong]

Sure there is not a fault in the house ? I would get an electrician in

 

[Farmelectrics]

Get an eicr done and take it from there

 

[telectrix]

IR tests and ramp tests would probably help. and... when there's a storm, there's usually rain. rain is wet. wet causes RCDs to trip.

 

[Bobster]

Rain getting into an outside light fitting?

 

[Knobhead]

Hi All

Wanted to get feedback on this idea.

I have 3 fuse boards which trip frequently whenever there is a lightening storm nearby. My electrician friend has suggested he swaps all the MCB's with RCBO's so that individual circuits trip rather than the whole board. Each board currently has a main RCB for protection - the proposal is to replace it with a 63A MCB.

1. Is this a good idea? I can't see a downside other than cost.

2. Any other thoughts on how to stop these boards tripping everytime there is a burst of lightening nearby?

Thanks!

Unless it’s a DP MCB it’s a dumb idea.

What testing did you’re “electrician friend” carry out before recommending replacing the existing MCB’s with expensive RCBO’s. Which if SP provide less protection than you have now. Only very expensive DP or SPSN RCBO’s give real protection.

Hi Tony

Do you mind to expand on that?

Thanks

I don’t believe your “electrician friend” exists.


A photograph of this set up would help.

 

[drjarmin]

In the UK??

No, I'm in Hong Kong

 

[drjarmin]

Rain getting into an outside light fitting?

One of the boards does have lighting outdoors and this circuit was found to have a fault. I checked some of the lamps and indeed the rubber was starting to perish and there was water.

However, there are two other boards. They also trip but less frequently. Each board comes from a separate meter.

 

[Knobhead]

This just gets better. The OP is in Hong Kong!

I’m surprised more of you don’t use the search previous started threads on EF.

>Edit<

Just read #15 after searching previous posts.


OP your "electrician friend" spends a lot of time on holiday.

 

[drjarmin]

Unless it’s a DP MCB it’s a dumb idea.

What testing did you’re “electrician friend” carry out before recommending replacing the existing MCB’s with expensive RCBO’s. Which if SP provide less protection than you have now. Only very expensive DP or SPSN RCBO’s give real protection.



I don’t believe your “electrician friend” exists.


A photograph of this set up would help.

Here is the current state of one of the boards. I can't get 6A RCBOs here so have ordered some from TLC which are arriving tomorrow. All the other MCBs have been replaced.

I can't speak to the testing the electrician did. He is UK certified (ex NHS). He came round and said there was earth leakage on the circuit which in turn leads to a distribution board outside with 3 further circuits (2 for lighting, one to power the garden shed). He recommended moving to RCBOs. I didn't know they existed until he mentioned them and I'm certainly not doing the work myself.

The problem is he repeatedly doesn't show up and doesn't return / answer calls. The picture is how he left my board on Monday saying he'd be back on Tuesday and hasn't reappeared. This is not an uncommon pattern and has been going on for months. Two reasons I've stuck with this situation - 1. He rewired the house and installed that board (and the other two) so should know the layout better than anyone else and 2. I am trying to find someone else to finish this off but it isn't easy. Haven't managed to find anyone who will pick up the work despite trying for months. The local practice is simply to rip everything out and start from scratch. There is no appetite to pick up from where someone left off.

Hence my question is this even the correct way to go!

 

[trev]

I'm sorry but the proposed method of "solving" this problem is ridiculous, you've already found the cause of the tripping on one board and you're not an electrician so how come your "electrician friend" couldn't locate it?
Get someone in who knows what they are doing and so will be able to find the reason for the other boards tripping and come up with a sensible, cost effective method of resolution. If you're determined to throw good money away I'll come over with my test gear as long as you are prepared to pay the exorbitant fees for travel accommodation and subsistence as well as my very reasonable fee for my professional services.

 

[telectrix]

I'm sorry but the proposed method of "solving" this problem is ridiculous, you've already found the cause of the tripping on one board and you're not an electrician so how come your "electrician friend" couldn't locate it?
Get someone in who knows what they are doing and so will be able to find the reason for the other boards tripping and come up with a sensible, cost effective method of resolution. If you're determined to throw good money away I'll come over with my test gear as long as you are prepared to pay the exorbitant fees for travel accommodation and subsistence as well as my very reasonable fee for my professional services.

you missed out the 1st class flight fare, and the 2 weeks holiday in the seychelles on your way home.

 

[trev]

you missed out the 1st class flight fare, and the 2 weeks holiday in the seychelles on your way home.

All under the travel, accommodation and subsistence heading mate, I can do without the Seychelles holiday because lying on a beach for a fortnight doesn't really appeal to me.

 

[drjarmin]

I'm sorry but the proposed method of "solving" this problem is ridiculous, you've already found the cause of the tripping on one board and you're not an electrician so how come your "electrician friend" couldn't locate it?
Get someone in who knows what they are doing and so will be able to find the reason for the other boards tripping and come up with a sensible, cost effective method of resolution. If you're determined to throw good money away I'll come over with my test gear as long as you are prepared to pay the exorbitant fees for travel accommodation and subsistence as well as my very reasonable fee for my professional services.

There is obviously an implication here that I'm doing the work myself and claiming advice from an 'electrician friend'. Absolutely not the case. I have never had any training and am not stupid enough to start playing with lethal voltages.

I am really unhappy about this situation and have come here to find advice as an approach to sorting it out. I have contacted a number of local electricians who refuse to take on the job because of my location. I am seriously considering flying someone out from Europe to get this job finished once and for all but that isn't necessarily an easy task in itself. I have a family in the house and having power cuts repeatedly isn't good for my daughter who is waking up in the middle of the night in a 30+ degree room due to no power and has an early start in the morning.

I'm respectfully asking for some helpful advice here. Any help to sort out a very frustrating and to date expensive problem is appreciated. Not sure where else to turn at the moment.

 

[drjarmin]

>>How do I post a picture here? It only gives me the option of a URL, not a local file.

Ah, found I don't have permission to post attachments. I'll PM one of the board admins.

 

[trev]

Because of a few external problems recently there has been an embargo put on people regarding posting pictures. Post them on photobucket or somewhere similar and post links.

I posted the words "electrician friend" the way I did not because of what you have written but because I don't think this person is an electrician as any electrician worth his salt would/should have come up with a more reasonable solution.

I apologise if it came across as criticising you.

 

[drjarmin]

Because of a few external problems recently there has been an embargo put on people regarding posting pictures. Post them on photobucket or somewhere similar and post links.

I posted the words "electrician friend" the way I did not because of what you have written but because I don't think this person is an electrician as any electrician worth his salt would/should have come up with a more reasonable solution.

I apologise if it came across as criticising you.

No problem! Actually there was another comment suggesting he didn't exist. I can understand some users do post here with a view to doing the work themselves but this is definitely 100% not the case now. I've taken a week off work to try to get this resolved and my guy has let me down again leaving me scrambling to find a plan B.

Can someone tell me why RCBOs is not a way forward? That is what he recommended and I have gone out and bought all except the 6A ones that are being shipped from the UK (along with new lights for the garden).

Thanks for the photobucket tip. I've created an account so here is the state of the board as left on Monday. He said he'd finished off, install the 63A mcb and tidy the neutrals and earth's on Tuesday....

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[trev]

Can someone tell me why RCBOs is not a way forward?
Because what he's saying is that rather than solve the problem he's saying you'll lose one circuit rather than them all which is ridiculous. If things are tripping then the root cause of it MUST be found rather than just put a sticking plaster over what is essentially a gaping wound.

 

[trev]

That board is a mess mate, it backs up my statement earlier that your electrician friend is not what he claims.
My offer still stands, I'll compromise and travel business class but you'll be left with a safe, easy to use installation at the end of it

 

[Knobhead]

To see one of the DB's have a look here http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...m/35925-help-fuse-board-gone-nuts-lights.html

 

[Rockingit]

To the OP, I don't think for one moment that you're being serious, but just in case you are, I've spent most of my life flying all over the world doing electrical and related work, pm me if you want to book a slot in my diary. As I remember, HK has this strange blend of UK and Chinese methods, and I'd guess that even now most work has to be done to UK standards to conform to what existed before?

 

[trev]

To the OP, I don't think for one moment that you're being serious, but just in case you are, I've spent most of my life flying all over the world doing electrical and related work, pm me if you want to book a slot in my diary. As I remember, HK has this strange blend of UK and Chinese methods, and I'd guess that even now most work has to be done to UK standards to conform to what existed before?

Oi! Get lost, I had first dibs on it!

 

[drjarmin]

Understood. As I said he did find a fault on the garden lights circuit and the lights are letting water in. But couldn't explain the other two boards tripping (one on each floor). They only trip when there is lightning. There will be a flash of lightning outside and on one, two or all three boards the RCB will trip. The most times this has happened is 35 over the course of a night. Agree this doesn't identify the root cause but isn't it better to lose a circuit rather than the whole board? Seems odd for a fault to be impacting all relatively new boards? They were installed about 5 years ago on the back of a complete rewire.

He also told me that the RCBs may be overly sensitive as I have all electrical devices in the house coming off surge protectors. This could be total cobblers but that's what he said.

I'm a bit short of options here. Local electricians basically will use any cable that's lying around at the time regardless of colour coding or width. They also don't seem to care about earthing stuff and will join wires by wrapping the wires and wrapping them in electrical tape and then happily leaving that join buried in conduit! Found a lot of that when the old original wiring was pulled out.

 

[trev]

The thing is there's no guarantee that when there's lightning it won't take out all the RCBOs. There's a reason why tripping happens and that is what needs to be found.

 

[telectrix]

sybil fawlty. specialist subject... the bleeding obvious. :6:

 

[Rockingit]

OP, when it's stormy, do your neighbours also get affected or is it just you? Are you in an apartment block or a standalone house?

 

[Gavin A]

is the answer to this question not - surge protection?

How does the incoming supply come in, is it underground cable or pole mounted?

I'm betting it will be pole mounted for a long run, and what you're experiencing is the impact of lightning induced surges on your incoming supply.

best to solve the actual cause of the problem, rather than treating the symptoms IMO.

 

[trev]

The answer could well be surge protection Gavin but as you say, it's going to be better in the long run to find out. It could well be some things are getting wet during the storms.

 

[Gavin A]

ps if this was UK regs it'd be under reg 443.2.3 for installations supplied by overhead cables and subject to >25 thunderstorms per year.

 

[Gavin A]

The answer could well be surge protection Gavin but as you say, it's going to be better in the long run to find out. It could well be some things are getting wet during the storms.

if it's an overhead line, and there's no surge protection device, then it's almost certainly this - notice the poster only refers to lightning, not 'every time it rains'.

 

[drjarmin]

if it's an overhead line, and there's no surge protection device, then it's almost certainly this - notice the poster only refers to lightning, not 'every time it rains'.

Yes. Only lightning. Rain isn't an issue. Had another storm tonight and the most vulnerable board with the rcdo's for once didn't trip. Only the top floor board. Progress?

The cables feeding the meters come from underground.

There are two 4' earth rods either side of the house in to wet clay. Not sure if this is relevant.

My only neighbours are next door with shared walls. I don't know if their board trips because it's their holiday home and they visit every couple of months. I haven't asked them.

 

[Gavin A]

is that underground all the way from the local transformer, or is it pole mounted from the transformer, then goes underground just before the house?

 

[drjarmin]

Underground. Nearest substation is about a mile or so away.

 

[drjarmin]

To the OP, I don't think for one moment that you're being serious, but just in case you are, I've spent most of my life flying all over the world doing electrical and related work, pm me if you want to book a slot in my diary. As I remember, HK has this strange blend of UK and Chinese methods, and I'd guess that even now most work has to be done to UK standards to conform to what existed before?

I'll send you a pm.

 

[drjarmin]

That board is a mess mate, it backs up my statement earlier that your electrician friend is not what he claims.
My offer still stands, I'll compromise and travel business class but you'll be left with a safe, easy to use installation at the end of it

Trev, for my understanding what is wrong with that board? I can see the neutrals and earths for the rcbos need tidying up but other than that are there other fundamental issues that should be addressed?

 

[drjarmin]

The thing is there's no guarantee that when there's lightning it won't take out all the RCBOs. There's a reason why tripping happens and that is what needs to be found.

Yes, I can see what you mean. Is the solution to fit something like this to each board?

Surge Protection Protection Devices

 

[trev]

Trev, for my understanding what is wrong with that board? I can see the neutrals and earths for the rcbos need tidying up but other than that are there other fundamental issues that should be addressed?

Well the way the top row has been fed leaves an awful lot to be desired, the cabling needs a damn good tidy up. There could also be further, more serious issues in there but only time and testing would prove that.

Yes, I can see what you mean. Is the solution to fit something like this to each board?

Surge Protection Protection Devices

Surge protection may well solve the problem but as I've said earlier in reply to another poster it could be something as simple as something else is getting wet but only someone with proper test equipment and the knowledge of how to use it could tell you that for definite

 

[drjarmin]

Thanks Trev

A bit like having a hole in your bucket, if I could find someone competent I wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

 

[trev]

Thanks Trev

A bit like having a hole in your bucket, if I could find someone competent I wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

Well if post #42 means what I think it could then you've found someone more than competent mate

 

[drjarmin]

Well if post #42 means what I think it could then you've found someone more than competent mate

Finances permitting!!