SBS Trade consumer units

[nicebutdim]

David Savery put out a video on YouTube about SBS going out of business. In it, he does make some interesting points about (most) other manufacturers effectively discontinuing products by not making them backwards compatible.

Must take a look at that. I have strong opinions about backward compatibility and it's one of the reasons I like Starbreaker, unlike a well known Electrium stablemate. Hager also deserve credit for moving in the same direction. I've placed a bit of faith in Fusebox and (to date) they seem to have a similar ethos where backward compatibility is concerned.

Unfortunately I think the majority of money is spent along the lines of price and local availability, so there's no real incentive for manufacturers to move in this direction.

 

[Simon47]

I don know how/if they verify non-scam victims.

I described my very part time business and sent some photos of previous work - he said OK.

SBS Trade Sales ceased trading last month.

That is indeed disappointing news. I'm now wondering if I should grab some additional RCBOs to cover potential additions at church.

But, they didn't make the stuff. The box fronts are branded (from memory) LVE or something like that. So I do wonder about the scope for alternative supplies ?

 

[nicebutdim]

But, they didn't make the stuff. The box fronts are branded (from memory) LVE or something like that. So I do wonder about the scope for alternative supplies ?

I've read before the claim that SBS circuit protection was made by Live, but don't know whether there's any truth in the rumour. Do live offer a dual busbar option?

 

[Simon47]

Well, when I did the church electrics, the bixes were Live branded, as was the 4pole switch (for c/o to gen input) he fitted for me in place of the 2pole main switch. The style of the Live branded switch was identical to the normal main switch.
But I've looked on their site Live - https://www.liveelectrical.co.uk/ and can't see them.
So it's quite possible he's been using Live boxes but "someone elses" internals.

Certainly going to be an issue if we can't find an alternative. At least the boxes are spacious so could fit the much longer AFDD+RCBO devices Arc Fault Detection Device With RCBO - https://www.liveelectrical.co.uk/Catalogue/Arc-Fault-Detection-Device-With-RCBO_ID163.html. pity it'll mean having to take out the dual busbar and scrap existing devices to reolace it with a single bus bar.

 

[Timbo]

I've read before the claim that SBS circuit protection was made by Live, but don't know whether there's any truth in the rumour. Do live offer a dual busbar option?

Mini RCBO Double Pole

Mini RCBO Double Pole

www.liveelectrical.co.uk

 

[nicebutdim]

Mini RCBO Double Pole

Mini RCBO Double Pole

www.liveelectrical.co.uk

I think you or someone else linked to these RCBOs before, but no one in the UK appears to stock them.

Mad to think that hundreds of BG dual RCD boards from Screwfix will be fitted up and down the UK this week, yet not a single Live dual busbar board as virtually no one knows of their existence and absolutely no one can buy one. Pretty much sums up the state of the industry.

 

[Simon47]

That's the ones. I'll admit it's hard browsing a lot of sites on a tiny mobile phone screen like I was earlier
One of the things SBS did was make his own bus bars to requirements. Live don't have an equivalent to connect a number of the mini RCBOs (L&N within one module space) to the main switch (L&N in separate module spaces), and the L&N bus bar they do have is only 63A rating. That's going to be a bit of a problem if we could find a supplier of the RCBOs.
But that's moot sooner or later, even if AFDD mandatory for everything is an April's Fool that some of us fell for, it's going to be along sooner or later - then we'll be back to neutral fly leads and massive devices.

 

[nicebutdim]

That's the ones. I'll admit it's hard browsing a lot of site on a tiny mobile phone screen like I was earlier

They aren't easy to find and more difficult again is finding an option to construct a suitable dual busbar enclosure. Given the lack of availability, or even information online, it's possible these are included in Live's online catalogue solely due to manufacture for SBS.

 

[Simon47]

I really doubt that SBS would buy enough for it to be cost effective to make a version just for them.

 

[nicebutdim]

I really doubt that SBS would buy enough for it to be cost effective to make a version just for them.

That was my initial thought, but it seems strange that the Live version doesn't appear to be held in stock anywhere worldwide.

 

[mainline]

That was my initial thought, but it seems strange that the Live version doesn't appear to be held in stock anywhere worldwide.

David Savery bought them all up.

 

[LukeD]

Shame.... but how could they eve compete with the like of ~Fusebox etc ?

 

[DPG]

Shame.... but how could they eve compete with the like of ~Fusebox etc ?

But to be fair, who'd have thought Fusebox would do as well as they did when they first started?

 

[nicebutdim]

But to be fair, who'd have thought Fusebox would do as well as they did when they first started?

Indeed, but they gave themselves every chance with aggressive marketing, competitive pricing and concerted efforts to get their product into wholesalers.

 

[pc1966]

I really doubt that SBS would buy enough for it to be cost effective to make a version just for them.

A lot of the EU mandated DP MCBs and RCBOs so I suspect that is the primary market for dual busbars.

But they should have become the norm decades ago so RCBO were all neat and compact, not the spaghetti junction in many CU. Even if MCB were still SP in the UK they could have had just a pass-through for N and still used a common busbar as appears to be the SBS case.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Legrand make various dual bus bars either staggered or straight at various pitch's, you can find them on the RS web site.

 

[nicebutdim]

Getting back to the point in hand; Live have a range of RCBOs in their catalogue which are intended for use with dual busbars, but no sign of a dual busbar for use in any of their enclosures and there is no availability of these RCBOs worldwide. This all seems rather odd.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Schneider also manufacture the dual bus bars: A9XPH212 | Schneider Electric Acti 9 2 Phase Busbar, 415V ac, 18mm Pitch | RS - https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/busbars/7762720 some will baulk at the price, but don't forget it's two bus bars.

 

[nicebutdim]

I don't see that pointing out devices from other manufacturers is going to be of any future help of owners of SBS boards.

It has been claimed that SBS devices were manufactured by Live so, while we're digging up information, anything on that front may be of use.

 

[timhoward]

Schneider also manufacture the dual bus bars: A9XPH212 | Schneider Electric Acti 9 2 Phase Busbar, 415V ac, 18mm Pitch | RS - https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/busbars/7762720 some will baulk at the price, but don't forget it's two bus bars.

On the RS ones the L and N spacing remains 1 module apart along it's length so it wouldn't work with the devices we are talking about.
Most of us wouldn't want to be reckless with mixing manufacturers gear inside a consumer unit too.
We really need something made by SBS or in the same supply tree.

 

[Timbo]

These also look identical. Again, no mentionof specific busbar.

NB2LE Series - Chint Europe (UK) Ltd

Single module RCBO B and C curve 6A to 25A 30mA 4500A Breaking capacity NB2LE Series – Datasheet NB2LE Series – Certificate

chint.co.uk

 

[Simon47]

These also look identical. Again, no mentionof specific busbar.

NB2LE Series - Chint Europe (UK) Ltd

Single module RCBO B and C curve 6A to 25A 30mA 4500A Breaking capacity NB2LE Series – Datasheet NB2LE Series – Certificate

chint.co.uk

Does the 4500 in the box mean only 4.5kA breaking capacity ? That's "rather low" compared to the normal 6kA and occasionally 10kA found on other makes.

 

[westward10]

This is often what happens when you buy these bespoke products and they go out of business, you are stuck. Unless someone takes over the brand you are going to have difficulty proving compatibility.

 

[Timbo]

Does the 4500 in the box mean only 4.5kA breaking capacity ? That's "rather low" compared to the normal 6kA and occasionally 10kA found on other makes.

 

[Simon47]

This is often what happens when you buy these bespoke products and they go out of business, you are stuck. Unless someone takes over the brand you are going to have difficulty proving compatibility.

Not so much bespoke, more "snall vendor". Mind you, the big vendors leave you in the same position when they change ranges - the cynics might think deliberately to obsolete installed systems.

 

[westward10]

Not so much bespoke, more "snall vendor". Mind you, the big vendors leave you in the same position when they change ranges - the cynics might think deliberately to obsolete installed systems.

Small vendor or bespoke it makes little difference it was a gamble to use their products and not face fallout in the long run. Of course the prominent brands chop and change with no backward compatibility but there is availability to some extent and the odd brand do maintain compatibility/availability. Schneider took over Merlin Gerin and Square D and to their credit still provide compatible parts. Given the choice of using SBS products it would not even be considered because the nature of the product and it's uniqueness it would not have been a viable option.

 

[pc1966]

Getting back to the point in hand; Live have a range of RCBOs in their catalogue which are intended for use with dual busbars, but no sign of a dual busbar for use in any of their enclosures and there is no availability of these RCBOs worldwide. This all seems rather odd.

I strongly suspect that 'Live' really just re-brand some supplier who makes a lot more for the EU market, maybe they are listed as they got UK certification/testing done for SBS, or just for internal purposes to sell to SBS?

But it is odd if they are the actual importer due to size they don't take over spares, etc.

 

[timhoward]

Does anyone recognise this embossed logo that is on the side of the devices?

 

[timhoward]

Possibly available in Australia!

DL 6kA 16 Amp Single Pole Safety Switch RCBO RCDMCB 30mA 3 YEARS WARRANTY

Shop Online DL 6kA 16 Amp Single Pole Safety Switch RCBO RCDMCB 30mA 3 YEARS WARRANTY! from AGM Electrical Supplies. We Offer top Quality RCBO Safety Switch in Australia.

agmelectrical.com.au

 

[mainline]

Place of Origin
Zhejiang, China
DL Electric.

Made for the Australian market

Top And Button Wire Dl7nl-40 Dl Rcbo 20a 1p+n Ac Type For As/nzs Standard With Saa $ Esv - Buy As/nzs Standard 1p+n Rcbo 20a Rcbo Product on Alibaba.com

Top And Button Wire Dl7nl-40 Dl Rcbo 20a 1p+n Ac Type For As/nzs Standard With Saa $ Esv - Buy As/nzs Standard 1p+n Rcbo 20a Rcbo Product on Alibaba.com

www.alibaba.com

 

[Timbo]

Place of Origin
Zhejiang, China
DL Electric.

Made for the Australian market

Top And Button Wire Dl7nl-40 Dl Rcbo 20a 1p+n Ac Type For As/nzs Standard With Saa $ Esv - Buy As/nzs Standard 1p+n Rcbo 20a Rcbo Product on Alibaba.com

Top And Button Wire Dl7nl-40 Dl Rcbo 20a 1p+n Ac Type For As/nzs Standard With Saa $ Esv - Buy As/nzs Standard 1p+n Rcbo 20a Rcbo Product on Alibaba.com

www.alibaba.com

I notice, scrolling down in that link, they have the ½ module width mcb's as well.

 

[Timbo]

Note main switch and mcb are LVE branded, as are the contactors. The RCBO's are SBS branded.
The enclosure is LVE.
I bought and installed this in 2018.

 

[ufarooq]

I do like the busbar system in those boards. But as you say, my concern would be availability of parts.

How much was that fully populated board out of interest?

You can purchase similar RCBO from Live Electrical Distribution, the product code is RNC1xxx-030N

 

[mainline]

I can only think that sbs were a bit of a con really, just selling rebranded low-priced items and selling them on to electrical installers as if they were an exclusive item that the public couldn't purchase.

I wouldn't like to guess how much of a markup they had, but it obviously wasn't enough to stop them going under.

 

[Simon47]

I disagree with that description.
What he did sell was a flexible system configured to your requirements.
For example, before the half-module or full module 1P+N MCBs were available, he'd cut you a busbar set that combined 2-pin locations for the compact RCBOs and 1-pin locations for MCBs.
Or, he'd swap the main switch for a changeover switch to support genny input, with busbars made to suit.

And bear in mind he was doing this before compact RCBOs were available from most of the manufacturers. Admittedly, now every man and his dog does compact RCBOs etc, it's taken away a lot of the benefits.

IMO the custom busbars were the USP for him. LiVE have 2-pin busbar sets, but only sold in 1m lengths with nothing but 2-pin locations. Hence no busbar that fits both the compact RCBOs and the main switch - so I suppose that means having fly-leads internally sharing a terminal with the bus bar in one of the RCBOs, which is hardly ideal.

Hmm, there's an opportunity there - only selling busbars to make up a LiVE unit

 

[mainline]

Hmm, there's an opportunity there - only selling busbars to make up a LiVE unit

Basically what he did then

Reminds me of a bang and olufsen tv + video that came in the shop that had suffered damage from a lightning strike.

When looked at, the video was one of the most unreliable plastic carriage vhs ones ever made, the TV was a cheap Ferguson chassis.