Sub board from sub main

[nottz_spark]

Hi,
I have quoted up a job and would like to know if anyone can see anything wrong with my design.
From the 100A main cut out the tails go to an 80A switch fuse and out of there to consumer unit.
I need to run a sub main to provide another consumer unit upstairs,whiere there is a possibility of a further consumer unit if the client decides to make a 3rd flat. So my plan is...


1. remove tails from incoming side of 80A switch fuse and put in double pole henley block.

2. run tails from henley block back into switch fuse.

3. take additional feed from henley block into 63A switch fuse for sub main

4. run mains from out of switch fuse into new consumer unit upstairs.

all cable calculations have been done and comply for shock and overcurrent protection,so the main question i am wondering if it would be acceptable to install a 2nd 63A switch fuse for an additional ( 3rd ) consumer unit , either by henley blocking from 63A submain or from the henley block in position at the intake..( the 2nd consumer unit is already protected by a 63A switch fuse ).....i know there would then be no discrimination between the 2 63A fuses but something is telling me it will be ok as the DNO's main fuse is protected,hence it is a matter for the client......but i would invite the resident experts to ave a look at my plan and let me know if it is ok?

 

[Octopus]

3 flats off a standard single phase supply - really?

 

[Guest55]

3 accommodation units
3 switchfuses feeding 3 CU's
seperate tails from henly blocks

if youre doing it like this then it will work fine.
not sure where your discrimination issues are as none of the switchfuses are in series ?

 

[nottz_spark]

i assure you the cable calculations have been done and a seperate supply was my first suggestion but as usual the finances mean looking for an alternative to a new supply. original board is using less than 50 Amps and sub board will require approx 35 amps after diversity has been applied, so do you think this is a bad idea?

 

[Octopus]

Where are the 3 seperate meters going to be fitted, or is this a HMO type set up?

 

[Guest55]

if there are gas boilers for heating & hot water then you should be ok
if its all electric heating , HW & power then no chance will 1 x 100A fuse stetch to 3 flats

 

[nottz_spark]

3 accommodation units
3 switchfuses feeding 3 CU's
seperate tails from henly blocks

if youre doing it like this then it will work fine.
not sure where your discrimination issues are as none of the switchfuses are in series ?

i was under the impression dicrimination meant the local fuse operating as opposed to a fuse upstream?

 

[nottz_spark]

Where are the 3 seperate meters going to be fitted, or is this a HMO type set up?

there wont be 3 seperate meters just potentially 3 seperate consumer units...maybe you got the impression of seperate meters by me describing them as flats,that is just how i am visualising the job but in reality it will not be seperate for renting out purposes so 1 meter and 1 bill is sufficient.

 

[Guest55]

the only fuse upstream of the switchfuses is the service fuse and there is no requirement to discriminate with dno devices.

and so long as there are no mcb's bigger than 40A in the CU's , then you will have discrimination with the 63A switchfuses.

 

[nottz_spark]

the only fuse upstream of the switchfuses is the service fuse and there is no requirement to discriminate with dno devices.

and so long as there are no mcb's bigger than 40A in the CU's , then you will have discrimination with the 63A switchfuses.

if as you say there is no requirement to discriminate with dno fuse then i have made a mistake in believing there was a requirement to do so,or maybe its good practice,as opposed to a requirement that you discriminate sub with main fuse?

 

[telectrix]

i'd do as you say for DB2, but if and when you come to fit DB3, feed the tails from the henly blocks at the intake with a 2nd 63A switch fuse. then you won't have 2 63A fuses in series. and as biff says, max. 40A MCBs in DB2 and DB3.

 

[nottz_spark]

i'd do as you say for DB2, but if and when you come to fit DB3, feed the tails from the henly blocks at the intake with a 2nd 63A switch fuse. then you won't have 2 63A fuses in series. and as biff says, max. 40A MCBs in DB2 and DB3.

that is the logical way forward,thank you for your help guys.

 

[Knobhead]

As you’ve applied diversity to the two sub boards loading and added to a real reading of 50A for the main board. You’re in trouble (in theory).

The thing I love about diversity is it’s the biggest load of codswallop out! BS88’s are about as subtle as a brick, that’s why I like them as well.

 

[nottz_spark]

As you’ve applied
diversity to the two sub boards loading and added to a real reading of
50A for the main board. You’re in trouble (in theory).

The thing I love about diversity is it’s the biggest load of codswallop
out! BS88’s are about as subtle as a brick, that’s why I like them as
well.

diversity has been applied correctly and not in the manner you have incorrectly presumed

 

[Engineer54]

diversity has been applied correctly and not in the manner you have incorrectly presumed

What method of diversity have you applied to these separate CU installations??
I think Tony meant, that applying diversity is often a hit or miss affair, and unless you have many years under your belt in the industry, it'll be more often a miss than a hit!! The maximum demand diversity formulas you'll find quoted in BS7671 are the next best thing to being totally useless!!

 

[Phoenix]

Have to agree here; I split my house into loads of seperate RFC & lighting circuits. Went from a 5 way 3036 to a 12 way CU and all of a sudden I need my own power station!!!! But no additional demand. Crazy!

 

[nottz_spark]

What method of diversity have you applied to these separate CU installations??
I think Tony meant, that applying diversity is often a hit or miss affair, and unless you have many years under your belt in the industry, it'll be more often a miss than a hit!! The maximum demand diversity formulas you'll find quoted in BS7671 are the next best thing to being totally useless!!

i have already said that diversity has been applied to the design of the installation,the way it has been calculated for this installation is as follows...
i have counted the lighting points and made a calculation based upon the presumed load,as opposed to just calculating 66% of the 6 amp circuit...i presume this is what you were referring to when you asked which method was used to calculate diversity?...same method of calculation was used for cooker and ring circuits...etc...(with their respective diversity allowances).
Is this acceptable?

 

[Engineer54]

i have already said that diversity has been applied to the design of the installation,the way it has been calculated for this installation is as follows...
i have counted the lighting points and made a calculation based upon the presumed load,as opposed to just calculating 66% of the 6 amp circuit...i presume this is what you were referring to when you asked which method was used to calculate diversity?...same method of calculation was used for cooker and ring circuits...etc...(with their respective diversity allowances).
Is this acceptable?

In a word ...NOPE!!

Calculating accurate max demand and diversity is an art, which takes a good amount of experience to master. Their are rule of thumb methods that many use, (often, myself included) but even those are not what you would or could call accurate!!

 

[Outspoken]

I'll avoid the diversity argument because I think Tony and E54 have a handle on that thorny issue already, and I personally hate the darned thing as i feel, like them two, it is exceptionally rarely applied accurately or properly and the blame for that lays squarely with the IET.

I am curious as why you have not suggested to your client to up-rate the supply to 125A (The majority of domestic installs are capable of this) and is a cheap upgrade. Then the out from this should go (If only one meter installed) to the meter, then to a DB with 1 Double Pole 80A MCB Type B installed for the main flat and two Double Pole 63A MCB's Type B installed, one for each living unit and you then run a sub-main/tails from this board to the individual consumer units. If at some point the individual units get their own meter then it is a simple matter to install sub meters to the outgoing ways just as we do in commercial sublet units but you keep the main meter to ensure all meter readings actually add up...

You end up with a nice neat and clean installation, fully compliant and you also stop one person overloading things to the point of killing all...(in theory anyway)

 

[Tidy Max]

That sounds like the neatest way of doing it to me! Also probably the most functional way too in regards to adding additional meters at a later date.

I have never heard of a domestic i stall being upgraded to 125A though. Is it just a phonecall to the DNO and if so what is the cost? That is some valuable information right there Outspoken.

 

[Outspoken]

That sounds like the neatest way of doing it to me! Also probably the most functional way too in regards to adding additional meters at a later date.

I have never heard of a domestic i stall being upgraded to 125A though. Is it just a phonecall to the DNO and if so what is the cost? That is some valuable information right there Outspoken.

Very common in London and some bigger towns, a lot of modern town houses (The 3 Floor type) have 125A heads, although I am sure the availability will vary by the DNO, cost and most importantly, the supply cable being capable of being uprated.

I have done this on small commercial installs, but the heads are the same, and for the most part so are the cable sizes, and usually it takes a phone call, a form and a fee. Last time I did this it costs about £200, but I do know that in London domestics would be done for free, but this was more than a decade ago so it is likely to have changed significantly, perhaps one of the sparks who has done this recently will pop by and give you some up to date information on this, but I would suggest a call to the DNO would be the first point of contact and they can tell you if it is possible on your supply, if they say NO then everything we say here is moot.

 

[nottz_spark]

I'll avoid the diversity argument because I think Tony and E54 have a handle on that thorny issue already, and I personally hate the darned thing as i feel, like them two, it is exceptionally rarely applied accurately or properly and the blame for that lays squarely with the IET.

I am curious as why you have not suggested to your client to up-rate the supply to 125A (The majority of domestic installs are capable of this) and is a cheap upgrade. Then the out from this should go (If only one meter installed) to the meter, then to a DB with 1 Double Pole 80A MCB Type B installed for the main flat and two Double Pole 63A MCB's Type B installed, one for each living unit and you then run a sub-main/tails from this board to the individual consumer units. If at some point the individual units get their own meter then it is a simple matter to install sub meters to the outgoing ways just as we do in commercial sublet units but you keep the main meter to ensure all meter readings actually add up...

You end up with a nice neat and clean installation, fully compliant and you also stop one person overloading things to the point of killing all...(in theory anyway)

thank you outspoken for your input,all things considered uprating main fuse to 125A would be the ideal solution (dno price and supply cable capability permitting)..further investigation required on this one and again i thank all contributors to the thread, i am not 100% sure as to best way to proceed so the best thing to do is check check and check again...that is a big part of being electrically competent,in that you recognise your limitations and address them...hence the question being asked!!

- - - Updated - - -

I'll avoid the diversity argument because I think Tony and E54 have a handle on that thorny issue already, and I personally hate the darned thing as i feel, like them two, it is exceptionally rarely applied accurately or properly and the blame for that lays squarely with the IET.

I am curious as why you have not suggested to your client to up-rate the supply to 125A (The majority of domestic installs are capable of this) and is a cheap upgrade. Then the out from this should go (If only one meter installed) to the meter, then to a DB with 1 Double Pole 80A MCB Type B installed for the main flat and two Double Pole 63A MCB's Type B installed, one for each living unit and you then run a sub-main/tails from this board to the individual consumer units. If at some point the individual units get their own meter then it is a simple matter to install sub meters to the outgoing ways just as we do in commercial sublet units but you keep the main meter to ensure all meter readings actually add up...

You end up with a nice neat and clean installation, fully compliant and you also stop one person overloading things to the point of killing all...(in theory anyway)

 

[nottz_spark]

In a word ...NOPE!!

Calculating accurate max demand and diversity is an art, which takes a good amount of experience to master. Their are rule of thumb methods that many use, (often, myself included) but even those are not what you would or could call accurate!!

your views are entirely valid,however there is guidance in the appropriate regulations and literature in regard to the application of diversity and the fact that there is widespread misunderstanding in the industry and learning institutions does not negate its usage nor validity. Personally i dont find the concept or the application of diversity to be all that challenging,agreed there is a need for experience but you will not get experience without practising!! i do not mean to suggest i know it all about diversity but i am saying i dont understand the dislike of it by many sparks? its application and intended use is apparent to me.

 

[markythesparky]

Surely you would need a main isolator? I dont recall reading about one in these posts. Forgive me if I've missed this and you have allowed for it.

 

[Knobhead]

A little conundrum for you all on diversity.

Two 1600A incomers (open bus)
Outgoing:
1 X 1200A
9 X 600A
6 X 400A
3 X 200A

We never blew a fuse in the 23 years I was there after I installed it!

 

[Outspoken]

A little conundrum for you all on diversity.

Two 1600A incomers (open bus)
Outgoing:
1 X 1200A
9 X 600A
6 X 400A
3 X 200A

We never blew a fuse in the 23 years I was there after I installed it!

That is pretty common..

We just installed the following...

Dual 4000A Feeders to the Bus bars in the switchgear..

Outputs..from each (as they are duplicates) so below is just the A stream (The B listed are because there are two on each stream of some.)

Feed to UPS A = 1600A
Feed to UPS B = 1600A
Feed to Mech A Panel = 1200A
Feed to Mech B Panel = 1200A
Feed to DX Panel = 1200A
Feed to GLP Panel = 900A
Feed to Underground Services = 800A
Feed to External Services = 600A
Feed to Gen A = 200A
Feed to Gen B = 200A
Feed to Gen C = 200A
Feed to Ancillary Services = 200A

 

[Engineer54]

your views are entirely valid,however there is guidance in the appropriate regulations and literature in regard to the application of diversity and the fact that there is widespread misunderstanding in the industry and learning institutions does not negate its usage nor validity. Personally i dont find the concept or the application of diversity to be all that challenging,agreed there is a need for experience but you will not get experience without practising!! i do not mean to suggest i know it all about diversity but i am saying i dont understand the dislike of it by many sparks? its application and intended use is apparent to me.

Well i can tell you for an absolute certainty, that not a single electrical Design or Consultant Engineer would ever think about using the data fond within BS7671 or any of it's GN's on the subject!! The figures you will end up with, will always be so far out of this world and pretty much useless to man or beast!!

Try using those max demand/diversity on your own house, and you'll very quickly see exactly what i mean!! The chances are, you will end up with a figure, that is well above the DNO's cut-out fuse rating!!