Tools Robbed! Liverpool

[UNG]

I don't agree that prison is like a holiday camp, in fact a prison sentence for some families can have a devastating lifelong consequence.

That comment really sums what is actually wrong in today's society by turning it around so that the criminals are the victims while the crime can leave the real victims and / or their families in a devastating state they never envisaged before the crime

Without know the circumstances of the thief and why they do what they do, then it's difficult to easily find a solution.

How many criminals ever look at the circumstances of their victim before committing the crime, it is all to easy to look for and make excuses for why the crime was committed and the personal circumstances but it does not and should not detract from them serving the appropriate sentence for the crime
We need to bring in a real deterent soon otherwise it could turn nasty when the public withdraw their consent for the current policing system

 

[DPG]

That comment really sums what is actually wrong in today's society by turning it around so that the criminals are the victims while the crime can leave the real victims and / or their families in a devastating state they never envisaged before the crime

How many criminals ever look at the circumstances of their victim before committing the crime, it is all to easy to look for and make excuses for why the crime was committed and the personal circumstances but it does not and should not detract from them serving the appropriate sentence for the crime
We need to bring in a real deterent soon otherwise it could turn nasty when the public withdraw their consent for the current policing system

No point withdrawing consent from the policing system - it's the judicial system that's at fault. The police arrest them, the defence lawyers plead that they had a bad upbringing, the judge gives them a short or suspended sentence. Then they are back on the street and the cycle repeats.

A lot of these criminals have 20+ previous convictions. All of which are a result of the police catching them.

 

[LukeD]

There are plenty of home grown thieving scum as well.

Yes.But in regards to organised tool theft.These lot are Gold medal winners. Also some days it looks like entire retailers have been robbed by them. when you see 80 brand new fully labelled OX hammers, 100x stanley chisel sets . Cutters and drill bits all fully "retailed " .Now this can be on ONE stall only . so once you see 20 of these stall all with brand new fully unopened items all of the same brand and models EVER week. There has to be a trail to where they are coming from . The market owners are too scared to stop them. The police and council too scared . They trade on fear and are allowed a "freedom pass"

 

[mainline]

UNG said:
The problem is a prison sentence now is not perceived to be the deterent it needs to be and is more like a stay at an all inclusive holiday camp

I don't agree that prison is like a holiday camp, in fact a prison sentence for some families can have a devastating lifelong consequence.

UNG said:
That comment really sums what is actually wrong in today's society by turning it around so that the criminals are the victims while the crime can leave the real victims and / or their families in a devastating state they never envisaged before the crime


You make a sweeping statement that prisons are like holiday camps, and obviously have no real idea what they are like or how, especially young offenders or people with mental health problems, are treated.

Without know the circumstances of the thief and why they do what they do, then it's difficult to easily find a solution.

How many criminals ever look at the circumstances of their victim before committing the crime, it is all to easy to look for and make excuses for why the crime was committed and the personal circumstances but it does not and should not detract from them serving the appropriate sentence for the crime
We need to bring in a real deterent soon otherwise it could turn nasty when the public withdraw their consent for the current policing system

That's what the justice system is for, to deem an appropriate sentence based on the circumstances.
And pray tell what you would deem a deterrent sentence for say two 18yr olds, one who has a record as long as your arm and the other who has no record at all but has just gone along with his mate ?.

 

[mainline]

Yes.But in regards to organised tool theft.These lot are Gold medal winners. Also some days it looks like entire retailers have been robbed by them. when you see 80 brand new fully labelled OX hammers, 100x stanley chisel sets . Cutters and drill bits all fully "retailed " .Now this can be on ONE stall only . so once you see 20 of these stall all with brand new fully unopened items all of the same brand and models EVER week. There has to be a trail to where they are coming from . The market owners are too scared to stop them. The police and council too scared . They trade on fear and are allowed a "freedom pass"

Organised crime is a different ball game as far as sentencing is concerned.

 

[mainline]

UNG said:
The problem is a prison sentence now is not perceived to be the deterent it needs to be and is more like a stay at an all inclusive holiday camp

UNG said:
That comment really sums what is actually wrong in today's society by turning it around so that the criminals are the victims while the crime can leave the real victims and / or their families in a devastating state they never envisaged before the crime


You make a sweeping statement that prisons are like holiday camps, and obviously have no real idea what they are like or how, especially young offenders or people with mental health problems, are treated.



How many criminals ever look at the circumstances of their victim before committing the crime, it is all to easy to look for and make excuses for why the crime was committed and the personal circumstances but it does not and should not detract from them serving the appropriate sentence for the crime
We need to bring in a real deterent soon otherwise it could turn nasty when the public withdraw their consent for the current policing system

That's what the justice system is for, to deem an appropriate sentence based on the circumstances.
And pray tell what you would deem a deterrent sentence for say two 18yr olds, one who has a record as long as your arm and the other who has no record at all but has just gone along with his mate ?.

So you dislike and disagree, but no response to your statement of Prisons are like a holiday camp ? Or no reply as to what your deterrent would be ?.

 

[UNG]

So you dislike and disagree, but no response to your statement of Prisons are like a holiday camp ? Or no reply as to what your deterrent would be ?.

You have set out your sympathic position to crime need I say more than what I have already posted

 

[mainline]

You have set out your sympathic position to crime need I say more than what I have already posted

You seem to continue to make sweeping statements, just like you have again.

Nowhere have I said I was sympathetic, what I said was" Without knowing the circumstances of the thief and why they do what they do, then it's difficult to easily find a solution." You disagree with my statement, so obviously you must have a solution ?

You say the cure is a deterrent sentence, but given a scenario, you obviously can't think of what one would be.

You say "Prisons are seen to be like holiday camps” but you don't reply as to why you think that is ?

All you do is press the dislike and disagree, and give no reply in defence.

I obviously don't agree with crime of any kind, but there can be victims on both sides.

 

[LukeD]

2 of my clients are Canadian and "Way beyond " Wealthy . The spend most of the week as "Volunteers " at Feltham Young offenders " Prison and have done for the last 10 years . During this time they have also worked in other LOndon Prisons. They truly believe the whole system is a mess and it wont be long before the entire system is "privatised " Just like in the states and a prisoner is seen as ONLY a "income" . Yes many see prison as a "Kudos " due to their stupidity and manipulation by gangs etc . But the system needs to really only keep dangerous people away from society .Another answer needs to be found to deal with minor offenders and to keep them away from "Prison culture" which is frightening

 

[mainline]

2 of my clients are Canadian and "Way beyond " Wealthy . The spend most of the week as "Volunteers " at Feltham Young offenders " Prison and have done for the last 10 years . During this time they have also worked in other LOndon Prisons. They truly believe the whole system is a mess and it wont be long before the entire system is "privatised " Just like in the states and a prisoner is seen as ONLY a "income" . Yes many see prison as a "Kudos " due to their stupidity and manipulation by gangs etc . But the system needs to really only keep dangerous people away from society .Another answer needs to be found to deal with minor offenders and to keep them away from "Prison culture" which is frightening

There are quite a few DCMF prisons in the UK and have been since the 1990s.

 

[LukeD]

There are quite a few DCMF prisons in the UK and have been since the 1990s.

Except UK Judges/police and wardens dont get "bonuses " for feeding the system like they do in the US . I think one you take a young person into the prison system, you stand a much higher chance of "losing them forever " . The whole issue of crime stems from deep down in society .bad families , missing fathers etc . Its very very sad

 

[mainline]

Except UK Judges/police and wardens dont get "bonuses " for feeding the system like they do in the US . I think one you take a young person into the prison system, you stand a much higher chance of "losing them forever " . The whole issue of crime stems from deep down in society .bad families , missing fathers etc . Its very very sad

Totally agree, which is why I took umbrage when someone says “Holiday camps” they have no idea at all what going to prison can mean for some people.
There is a very high number of suicides in prisons every year, I wonder how many there are in holiday camps ?.

 

[nicebutdim]

While it's certainly the case that many people will find prison oppressive, and that many of these people are far from the stereotypical hardened criminal, these aren't the sort of people who go on wholesale robbing sprees and leave countless tradespeople without the tools needed to earn a living.

The sort of people who take every opportunity that presents itself, in order to enrich themselves at the expence of others, will generally find prison to be little more than a minor inconvenience. If they were forced to earn their keep in prison, with the alternative being 23.5 hour lock up, and provided nothing more than basic sustenance during their stay, they'd be much more inclined to avoid ever going to prison.

 

[littlespark]

You know what should be a crime? Overuse of inverted commas

I have to agree, it's not the police fault.... its the system in general... for all the reasons already given. Soft sentences, no real punishment.
I feel sorry for anyone that's had their tools nicked.....

But a story from when i lived in Dundee. I parked my car overnight near the city centre so i could go on the bevy.
Walked back to pick it up the next day to find a door window smashed. And my old leather jacket that was in the car on the ground a few feet away. A few cassettes were missing from the glovebox. (Yes, it was that long ago!)

What they didn't take.... and what the old leather jacket was covering on the back seat... was my tools, works test kit. Hilti drill, some cable etc etc.

 

[mainline]

While it's certainly the case that many people will find prison oppressive, and that many of these people are far from the stereotypical hardened criminal, these aren't the sort of people who go on wholesale robbing sprees and leave countless tradespeople without the tools needed to earn a living.

The sort of people who take every opportunity that presents itself, in order to enrich themselves at the expence of others, will generally find prison to be little more than a minor inconvenience. If they were forced to earn their keep in prison, with the alternative being 23.5 hour lock up, and provided nothing more than basic sustenance during their stay, they'd be much more inclined to avoid ever going to prison.

I agree that career criminals and organised gangs are a different kettle of fish.
They also end up in the dock with different charges like conspiracy, giving the Judge a much wider sentencing range.

 

[mainline]

I don't agree that prison is like a holiday camp, in fact a prison sentence for some families can have a devastating lifelong consequence.

Without know the circumstances of the thief and why they do what they do, then it's difficult to easily find a solution.

And what do you dislike about those statements, Mike ?

 

[OnlQQker]

I remember years back in the mess hut, a Carpenter was telling a Bricklayer how he kept a Rockweiler in the car for added security.

In which the Bricklayer replied, 'so it can put out fires can it'

 

[Mike Johnson]

And what do you dislike about those statements, Mike ?

Every thing you have said so far about this subject.

 

[mainline]

Every thing you have said so far about this subject.

Everything ? Dislike or disagree ?

These are the statements I made, can you tell me why you Dislike / Disagree


There is a very high number of suicides in prisons every year

There are quite a few DCMF prisons in the UK and have been since the 1990s.

I don't agree with crime of any kind, but there can be victims on both sides.

I agree that career criminals and organised gangs are a different kettle of fish.
They also end up in the dock with different charges like conspiracy, giving the Judge a much wider sentencing range

Without knowing the circumstances of the thief and why they do what they do, then it's difficult to easily find a solution.

Prisons are not like holiday camps.

Those statements are all factual, so I don't see how you can disagree with them.

 

[mainline]

John Major brought in a reform that any Foreign national caught for the second time would be repatriated to their home country, trouble is the do gooders out there fought it down as against human right for asylum seekers, not to say that all scrotes are foreign.

I wonder could you point me to some sort of reference to John Major doing this, as I would be interested in reading about it.
I can find no reference to it via google etc.