Applicance outlets in kitchen

[mikedaspark]

Hey all,

Dont post on here much but after searching for an answer to my question and coming up with nothing definitive i thought id ask the brains of this forum.

Ok so having a debate with my friend over access to appliance outlets in a kitchen.
He thinks there is some sort of regulation for access to the socket outlet of kitchen appliances in case of fire.

Now ive never heard of any?

Obviously good practice you would put in some sort of isolation for intergrated appliances above the worktop as there is no access regardless of fire.

My arguement was, well what if theres a fire on your microwave or toaster or your tv you have no access to these if its on fire and plugged in behind.

Im after a definitive answer/regulation for intergrated and none intergrated appliances e.g stand alone fridges etc

Thanks

Mike

 

[telectrix]

no reg.as such, but good practice to fit accessible isolation devices. e.g. 20A D/P switch or a FCU.

 

[Octopus]

Would you plug in a built in dish washer and not have any local isolation?

This is a grey area BUT only for muppets.

Local "readily accessible" isolation is a must IMHO.

 

[mikedaspark]

Of course not.

What i was trying to get through to him is that it was good practice not a regulation.

 

[davesparks]

In case of fire you need access to the nearest exit and a phone to dial 999

 

[Andy78]

Of course not.

What i was trying to get through to him is that it was good practice not a regulation.

As with all debates about regulations, get him to come up with the regulation number to prove his case.

 

[Octopus]

Of course not.

What i was trying to get through to him is that it was good practice not a regulation.

the regulations should be clearer. Problem is that some people want to cut corners to make themselves cheaper!

 

[NDG Elecs]

I thought accessible local isolation for built in appliances was necessary under the building regs. I always fit local isolation for such, and won't cut corners regardless, but did not realise it is general guidance only. Just looked through IET guide to building regs, and there is no reference back to 7671 on page 68. Building Regs and 7671 could be renamed 100 shades of grey...

 

[Englishman]

I always put local isolation in when designing new kitchens (unless the customer explicitly asks me not to), but fail to see why it MUST be done. The breaker still counts as isolation imo, and a built in appliance is no different to any other appliance which is in front of a socket.

 

[Octopus]

I always put local isolation in when designing new kitchens (unless the customer explicitly asks me not to), but fail to see why it MUST be done. The breaker still counts as isolation imo, and a built in appliance is no different to any other appliance which is in front of a socket.

Hum.... so no local DP isolators, plugs behind units and the RCD starts tripping - oops!

 

[Devils-Teacher]

Hum.... so no local DP isolators, plugs behind units and the RCD starts tripping - oops!

I agree with you, and when the customer cannot be 'persuaded' to have local isolation, I wire fitted appliances in the kitchen from DP switches mounted under the DB.

Bit of overkill maybe, but makes fault finding easier, and apart from that I will never accept that an MCB/RCBO etc should be used for 'functional switching'

 

[Englishman]

Hum.... so no local DP isolators, plugs behind units and the RCD starts tripping - oops!

I have four double sockets behind my TV unit that have 7 appliances plugged in. I take it you have an issue with that as well?

 

[Leesparkykent]

I agree with you, and when the customer cannot be 'persuaded' to have local isolation, I wire fitted appliances in the kitchen from DP switches mounted under the DB.

Bit of overkill maybe, but makes fault finding easier, and apart from that I will never accept that an MCB/RCBO etc should be used for 'functional switching'

Put the socket in the adjacent cupboard. I'm aware of what the electricians guide to the building regs says about being installed on the fabric of the building...but Imo if you position them where they are not likely to get bashed,etc then I don't see the problem.

 

[telectrix]

I have four double sockets behind my TV unit that have 7 appliances plugged in. I take it you have an issue with that as well?

far easier to move a TV than a heavy washing machine/dishwasher, esp. if wet-pants has made the water intake and drain tight/short. i think murdoch's point is that if you had a N-E leakage on a kitchen appliance, it's much easier to isolate the fault if you have D/P switch/FCU accessible. that's apart from the fire risk ( which, as we all know , fires can only be caused by plastic CUs ).

 

[Englishman]

I agree with you, and when the customer cannot be 'persuaded' to have local isolation, I wire fitted appliances in the kitchen from DP switches mounted under the DB.

Bit of overkill maybe, but makes fault finding easier, and apart from that I will never accept that an MCB/RCBO etc should be used for 'functional switching'

If a fault on their installation, that is nothing to do with your workmanship, develops. And it was their choice not to have FCUs providing local isolation, then why do you care how difficult that then makes fault finding? If you are the one who actually does it.

And you may not "accept" the mcb providing functional switching, it sort of does, doesn't it.

 

[muzza1]

Years ago i installed so many fcu's above w'tops and unsw sso's behind appliances. Could have saved so much time and effort by installing a few double skts on patrices in cupbords.
Seen loads of melted plugtops, dishwasher cables melted into the back.
Don't mind doing Kitchens but can't stand wrestling with washing machines and intergrated dishwashers!

 

[Englishman]

far easier to move a TV than a heavy washing machine/dishwasher, esp. if wet-pants has made the water intake and drain tight/short. i think murdoch's point is that if you had a N-E leakage on a kitchen appliance, it's much easier to isolate the fault if you have D/P switch/FCU accessible. that's apart from the fire risk ( which, as we all know , fires can only be caused by plastic CUs ).

My TV is sitting on a 1600mm wide unit, that is full of CDs, DVDs, paperwork, and other bits. You want to try and move the beast, was heavy enough when it was empty.

And yes, it makes the process of isolating a fault easier, but you could argue the case that every socket in use could have a FCU.

 

[Octopus]

I have four double sockets behind my TV unit that have 7 appliances plugged in. I take it you have an issue with that as well?

hum....we have 7 items too, but I suspect the total weight of the 7 is less than one washing machine

 

[Englishman]

hum....we have 7 items too, but I suspect the total weight of the 7 is less than one washing machine

Oh the weight is certainly less. But there is a fully loaded unit in front of it that will need emptying, because you don't have enough room either end to get it picked up.

 

[Dave OCD]

Put the socket in the adjacent cupboard. I'm aware of what the electricians guide to the building regs says about being installed on the fabric of the building...but Imo if you position them where they are not likely to get bashed,etc then I don't see the problem.

Exactly what I always do Lee , why complicate things and it works well for me.
Rarely you may get the chance to fit and connect the sockets in the base units before the worktops go in, that makes the job so much easier.