Who's right? Hopefully me!

[ipf]

Sorry I don’t follow you?

What's the general scenario when a diyer removes a light fitting, changes it and then can't understand what's wrong?

 

[Ian1981]

What's the general scenario when a diyer removes a light fitting, changes it and then can't understand what's wrong?

They come on this forum?

 

[ipf]

They come on this forum?

Been known to, for sure.

 

[Toneyz]

IMO if the OP, who as it seems, has received conflicting advice, the training center's usually have some affiliation to a CPS member, example NICEIC approved, that sort of thing.
If he get failed for taking the advice from his Tutor, and it proves out to be the wrong advice, as in this case, I feel his recourse will be to contact the CPS and air his complaint to them, whether he will get anywhere is debatable, you have to agree to that surely, or maybe you don't.

I see where your coming from now regarding the affiliation, I think it is mostly with the NICEIC and C& G some aren't though. In my day and maybe yours you only had the FoE run/funded (in part) by the Departement of Education you didn't get all these commercial education providers. I can see the point that the training centre would want to see the student installing as taught but sleaving brown complies with the regs.

 

[Pete999]

I see where your coming from now regarding the affiliation, I think it is mostly with the NICEIC and C& G some aren't though. In my day and maybe yours you only had the FoE run/funded (in part) by the Departement of Education you didn't get all these commercial education providers. I can see the point that the training centre would want to see the student installing as taught but sleaving brown complies with the regs.

Deleted

 

[westward10]

They come on this forum?

 

[Risteard]

the only reason we use blue with a brown sleeve is when using T/E where there's no option. in ROI, they use twin brown for switch cables.

In all of Ireland twin brown is used, although in the south it is prohibited to oversleeve.

 

[Risteard]

the only reason we use blue with a brown sleeve is when using T/E where there's no option. in ROI, they use twin brown for switch cables.

In all of Ireland twin brown is used, although in the south it is prohibited to oversleeve.

 

[AJshep]

Never seen twin brown here in the South of England. However used to see twin Red quite a bit.
Serves a purpose, but it's a pain in the bum when you accidentally wire a complete lighting circuit in the stuff.

 

[Risteard]

It would matter if you had a 2 or 3 gang switch and needed to loop the L to the other switches.

Just connect one of the browns to the cpc and bell it out. It really doesn't present a problem. Worth remembering that bs7671 expresses a preference for conductors to be identifiable throughout their length and not just at the terminations.

If someone did it with a single I would expect them to rewire it properly.

 

[123]

@Risteard doesn't the Republic of Ireland have it now that in T&E the CPC is both sleeved throughout and of the same size as the Live Conductors?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

@Risteard doesn't the Republic of Ireland have it now that in T&E the CPC is both sleeved throughout and of the same size as the Live Conductors?

I believe that is the case for continental Europe.

 

[Ian1981]

SO we are lagging behind again are we?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

An incorrectly pulled blue single sleeved and used as a line is very shoddy in my book and I would not permit it on new work at all. Forgive my unfamiliarity with T+E (I only work on projects that are in steel con, SWA and pyro) isn't twin brown usually made with one core insulated with solid brown, and the other brown-skinned white insulation, so you can tell the difference during installation? I've certainly seen red done that way.

Continental Europe does generally use an equal gauge insulated CPC but it's normally in a round cable rather than flat. Aus & NZ also have their CPC like that but the cable is flat like ours. USA T+E has bare CPC.

 

[westward10]

I have some twin brown and there is nothing to distinguish the core by insulation variant.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

An incorrectly pulled blue single sleeved and used as a line is very shoddy in my book and I would not permit it on new work at all. Forgive my unfamiliarity with T+E (I only work on projects that are in steel con, SWA and pyro) isn't twin brown usually made with one core insulated with solid brown, and the other brown-skinned white insulation, so you can tell the difference during installation? I've certainly seen red done that way.

Continental Europe does generally use an equal gauge insulated CPC but it's normally in a round cable rather than flat. Aus & NZ also have their CPC like that but the cable is flat like ours. USA T+E has bare CPC.

I have half a roll of Portuguese flat cable in my garage.
Not seen twin brown, but the twin red I’ve seen had nothing to distinguish the cores.

 

[123]

Sometimes the browns are slightly different shades...good luck with that in good light let alone poor light. Have seen them as Lucien says also.

Last time I used Twin Brown it was an incorrect delivery from wholesalers and I wired a lighting circuit with it

 

[Risteard]

@Risteard doesn't the Republic of Ireland have it now that in T&E the CPC is both sleeved throughout and of the same size as the Live Conductors?

That's correct. The implementation date was the 5th September gone. It's roughly 30% dearer than BS T&E for IS T&E.

 

[Pete999]

That's correct. The implementation date was the 5th September gone. It's roughly 30% dearer than BS T&E for IS T&E.

Would save on green and yellow sleeving, And no more multi cpcs crammed into 1 length of sleeving

 

[Risteard]

I wired a lighting circuit with it

My old boss did that once. Sorry to say I laughed.

 

[123]

My old boss did that once. Sorry to say I laughed.

I now have plenty of 3mm bore blue sleeving in stock

 

[Ian1981]

Like I say I use twin brown quite a lot and unless it’s different with various manufacturers, the insulation on the browns is the same no lighter shade etc.
Or maybe I’ve just never noticed?

 

[Ian1981]

My old boss did that once. Sorry to say I laughed.

I refused to 2nd fix a job because of this once.
I was expected to bell out the cores and oversleeve the neutral with blue sleeving.
The numpties(we are from the same company) who 1st fixed it where made to go back and do it when I kicked up a stink.

 

[123]

Like I say I use twin brown quite a lot and unless it’s different with various manufacturers, the insulation on the browns is the same no lighter shade etc.
Or maybe I’ve just never noticed?

Have seen different shades, the white inners and both browns being identical. I don't (intentionally) use it, all wholesalers here stock it though. I prefer Brown & Blue, nice and easy to identify what is what

 

[Des 56]

I am surprised twin brown is sometimes not available in England or even been seen by some,it has been very easy to source in my own experience
Twin & Earth Brown - Brown Cable - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Index/Twin_and_Earth_Brown/index.html

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Unless I'm mistaken, in Aus there is a special cable for switch drops with red and white cores. They still use red/black/G+Y so red carries through as the PL and white is the SL. That way you can tell at any fitting which is the switch drop and which of its cores is PL & SL. No sleeving or belling through required. I would have thought brown/black better than brown/brown for our own version.

OTOH in the USA, historically they used normal Black/White/CPC T+E (i.e. Romex / NM)for switch drops but PL and SL were reversed relative to UK practice. White (normally neutral) was sleeved black to make the PL, black (normally hot / line) was the SL. This made the colours at the lamp terminals correct, and the PL of the switch drop immediately identifiable at the loop-through as it is a white sleeved black. Sounds a bit funny when you're used to doing it our way but it makes sense. Since 2011 (?) switch drops are normally 3-core as a neutral is required to be available at switches. As their 3C+E contains black, white and red (second hot / SL) they don't need to sleeve as the colours (sorry, colors) are already right for PL, SL & N.

 

[Grant webber]

Iv wired a kitchen extension in twin brown by mistake, about 30 downlights, i didnt even know it existed until i came to second fix it. Bad day at the office

 

[123]

Iv wired a kitchen extension in twin brown by mistake, about 30 downlights, i didnt even know it existed until i came to second fix it. Bad day at the office

30 Downlights in a Kitchen, wowsers. How big was it for that many downlights?

 

[Grant webber]

Open plan kitchen diner

30 Downlights in a Kitchen, wowsers. How big was it for that many downlights?

A fair size. Loads of big houses round here

 

[Toneyz]

Open plan kitchen diner

A fair size. Loads of big houses round here

When I used to get twin brown delivered used to mark on drum B/B.so could not get mixed up.

 

[Risteard]

I would have thought brown/black better than brown/brown for our own version.

There wouldn't be much sense in that as it would require remarking to comply with BS7671 as the phase must be brown with single phase.

 

[dmxtothemax]

Everyone knows that Brown electricity doesn't travel well in Blue cable ! TSK TSK !

 

[Sparkingmad]

And then you have heating engineers who have been told they can use what ever colours they like inc G/Y as long as they identify it with brown sleeving .
I think the OP has got his answer if he used black instead of blue then nothing would have been said as black is a L conductor whether it’s PL or SL.

 

[Risteard]

I think the OP has got his answer if he used black instead of blue then nothing would have been said as black is a L conductor whether it’s PL or SL.

Not correct. Black is L2 in a three-phase system. Black would have been equally incorrect.

 

[Sparkingmad]

Black is L2 in a 3 ph system but it is also a SwL in single phase. My point is whether it is brown or black in 3ph or single phase in a 3 core + E cable an electrician would expect it to be live or to become live. Where as blue would be expected to be neutral. So even though not technically correct it would have at least been a colour associated with a live conductor?

 

[elsparko]

if you use 2core+e for strappers on a 2way then its effectively this situation in OP, you would have to sleeve the blue "neutral" with brown to correctly identify

for an exam setting though with singles i would of went with the brown

 

[Risteard]

Black is [...] also a SwL in single phase.

And where does BS7671 give credence to this view?

 

[elsparko]

And where does BS7671 give credence to this view?

its a bit of an unwritten rule id say.

 

[Risteard]

it would have at least been a colour associated with a live conductor?

So would blue. Neutral is a live conductor.

 

[Risteard]

its a bit of an unwritten rule id say.

I would say it is completely prohibited by BS7671 actually.