Air source heat pump heating issue

[Themorganator4]

Pics as promise, turns out I have a 3 port valve on the buffer tank. The 2 port valve with the warning sticker is the one stuck on manual.

This was taken when both heating and hot water are on, the water pump is working as is the heating (as the hot water is on)

 

[Themorganator4]

Right, before you start pulling things to bits you need to check whether there is power at terminal 9 of the heat pump wiring centre, see page 9 of the manual.

If you have 230 at terminal 9 then the HP is asking the MV to open, if there is no power then the HP is not asking for heating regardless of what the controller says.

I still think this is a parameter error or sensor fault.

If you have power at terminal 9 and no power at the MV then a broken wire you have, or a hidden JB.

The ones I've seen tend to power the MVs from the HP, the orange/grey being used to power pumps via contactors.

Is there and internal wiring centre? If so a loose connection in there may be the cause.

Excuse my ignorance but what does JB stand for

 

[GBDamo]

Excuse my ignorance but what does JB stand for

Junction box,

The one on the wall next to the switches.

You'll probably find a multi core flex going from there to the HP.

One core will go to terminal 9 on the HP and the heating MV should be connected here also.

I'm not sure what the three port is doing, especially in the position it is. Might be a return diverted.

Any joy with the engineers manual?

 

[solarsavings]

It's difficult to see whats going on in that photo otherthan there is a call for heat as the pump is/should be running. I've never seen a buffer used like that before. What room stat do you have?

 

[Themorganator4]

It's difficult to see whats going on in that photo otherthan there is a call for heat as the pump is/should be running. I've never seen a buffer used like that before. What room stat do you have?

It's a Honeywell but it doesn't appear to be working (heating is on no matter temp on stat) EDIT, scrap that, it works fine:

 

[Themorganator4]

Junction box,

The one on the wall next to the switches.

You'll probably find a multi core flex going from there to the HP.

One core will go to terminal 9 on the HP and the heating MV should be connected here also.

I'm not sure what the three port is doing, especially in the position it is. Might be a return diverted.

Any joy with the engineers manual?

I won't be able to get round to that until the weekend, as soon as I do I will post the results

 

[Wilko]

Hi - this is a 2 pole voltage tester and I wouldn't attempt this without it, or its brother. I'm just repeating I know, but inside the valve covers are L conductors and if the place has been installed incorrectly they may not isolate with the local switch. That's why we test everything to everything.
Megger TPT320 AC/DC Voltage Tester - https://www.test-meter.co.uk/megger-tpt320-ac-dc-voltage-tester/

 

[Themorganator4]

So you're saying they could still be live even if isolated due to poor wiring?
Also what is the purpose of a 2 pole tester?

 

[Themorganator4]

So it appears that terminal 9 is reading 240 regardless if heat is on or off, what does this mean?

 

[Themorganator4]

And I assume I put 1 probe on the live wire and the other on terminal 9? Sorry I am a bit of a noob unless the electrics are very basic

 

[GBDamo]

And I assume I put 1 probe on the live wire and the other on terminal 9? Sorry I am a bit of a noob unless the electrics are very basic

T9 should be a live feed to the heating MV, if I read the diagram correctly.

It should be live in heating only.

Test between T9 and a common neutral not a live.

Let me know how you get on.

 

[GBDamo]

T9 should be a live feed to the heating MV, if I read the diagram correctly.

It should be live in heating only.

Test between T9 and a common neutral not a live.

Let me know how you get on.

Just looked at the wiring diagram in full screen, the heating MV could be being fed from other places further up the terminals.

Could yo post a picture of this from inside the heat pump.

 

[Themorganator4]

 

[Themorganator4]

Tried testing with 1 pin in the N and the other at T9, no voltage when heating off or on

 

[Themorganator4]

On another note i loosened the switch which was stuck in manual on the MV, it's in auto but it's made no difference

 

[Themorganator4]

Just looked at the wiring diagram in full screen, the heating MV could be being fed from other places further up the terminals.

Could yo post a picture of this from inside the heat pump.

Any ideas

 

[Themorganator4]

Bump

 

[Wilko]

Hi - I think it's likely there is a control fault. IIRC the heat pump runs but has never been controlled properly for you (?). If so, it's possible the fault could be an incorrect control design (one that could never work), or an incorrect installation (defeating an appropriate design), or a more recent failure of valves, micro switches or conductors. There may also be an internal fault with the heat pump unit. Each of these needs eliminating and I think you are going to need onsite help with this.
PM me if you want.

 

[Themorganator4]

Yes, the heating works whilst the hot water is on but doesnt work on its own accord. All the valves open etc as they should so in order to have heating, I have to turn on the hot water and the pump heats up both, problem is the heat pump turns off when the hot water is up to temp even if the room is freezing. If I just turn on heating, all valves etc work but the heat pump is off.

 

[solarsavings]

The programmer you have, is it a Honeywell ST9400c ?

 

[Themorganator4]

It is yes

 

[Themorganator4]

The programmer you have, is it a Honeywell ST9400c ?

It is yes

 

[solarsavings]

I did ask to see your controls in another post as I suspected that you had that programmer.

Turn off the demand for hot water and heating.

Turn the cylinder and room stats up to ensure they both call for heat. (make sure you turn the cylinder down again when you have tested the programmer)

Using the override buttons you should see the green lights and hear two distinct clicks. The sound of the clicks are the important bits, so listen for them both.

If you only hear one click then the programmer is at fault.

 

[Themorganator4]

I did ask to see your controls in another post as I suspected that you had that programmer.

Turn off the demand for hot water and heating.

Turn the cylinder and room stats up to ensure they both call for heat. (make sure you turn the cylinder down again when you have tested the programmer)

Using the override buttons you should see the green lights and hear two distinct clicks. The sound of the clicks are the important bits, so listen for them both.

If you only hear one click then the programmer is at fault.

Just done as you described, heard 2 clicks

 

[Themorganator4]

Sorry to resurrect an old post but I'm still having this issue.

I have established that the microswitch on the Mv is fine, i had a look at the junction box and it's a hell of a mess in there, i can see about 6 or so white wires, all labelled with numbers (I assume in relation to the port on the HP) there is a bunch of wires connected to these white wires, MV's prorgammer etc etc

I suspect there is either a broken connection or another error with the POS HP itself, any ideas?

 

[marconi]

What is the make and model of the ASHP please?

Speed reading this thread did I pick up correctly:

1a. you have a hot water tank and separate buffer hot water tank?

1b. The buffer tank contains the heated water for the radiator circuit?

2. as far as you know the installation control is S plan or some derivative of it?

3. you have a room thermostat(s), a hot water tank thermostat and a buffer tank thermostat?

4. One pump.


Did the system ever work correctly?

What solenoid valves do you have and their type - just post a picture of the label on them or the part number and make.

Please draw a sketch of the valves, pump, ASHP, tanks, rads water circuit.

 

[Themorganator4]

What is the make and model of the ASHP please?

Speed reading this thread did I pick up correctly:

1a. you have a hot water tank and separate buffer hot water tank?

1b. The buffer tank contains the heated water for the radiator circuit?

2. as far as you know the installation control is S plan or some derivative of it?

3. you have a room thermostat(s), a hot water tank thermostat and a buffer tank thermostat?

4. One pump.


Did the system ever work correctly?

What solenoid valves do you have and their type - just post a picture of the label on them or the part number and make.

Please draw a sketch of the valves, pump, ASHP, tanks, rads water circuit.

Correct, it has never worked correctly since I moved in, i can't say if it ever worked correctly.

It's an ideal airtherm 4.5

The third pic is of the 3 way valve, it doesn't seem to work when hot water or heating is on (had the cade off when it was running, no movement on the valve) this is on the buffer tank

 

[marconi]

Re your #53 - is there a link between terminals 11 and 12? I cannot tell from the image.

Such a link seems to be required for simultaneous space and water heating according to the manual. Do not put one in if there is not one just yet.

I will read the ASHP manual this evening to avoid suffering BGT or SCD.

 

[Themorganator4]

Re your #53 - is there a link between terminals 11 and 12? I cannot tell from the image.

Such a link seems to be required for simultaneous space and water heating according to the manual.

There are 2 wires coming from 11 and 12, i cannot tell if they are linked but there are no wires at the bottom of the terminals, would you like me to test for an open circuit between 11 and 12?
[automerge]1570293191[/automerge]
I should mention that there is heating when the hot water is on but the CH does not work independently of the hot water. I have to have both on in order to have heating and once it hits temp i have to run the hot water until the HP kicks in so I have heating again.

 

[marconi]

No don't do any measurements.

So the fault is that the ASHP will never run up in demand to a space thermostat to warm the water in the buffer tank?

Please confirm whether there is a 'stat on the buffer tank - I'd expect to see one.

The programmer does have HW and CH selected to on and either in a timed on period or sert to constant?

 

[Themorganator4]

No don't do any measurements.

So the fault is that the ASHP will never run up in demand to a space thermostat to warm the water in the buffer tank?

Please confirm whether there is a 'stat on the buffer tank - I'd expect to see one.

The programmer does have HW and CH selected to on and either in a timed on period or sert to constant?

That's correct there is a stat on the buffer tank, all pumps and MVs work when heat is called for just not the heat pump.

And yes the programmer works correctly.
See pic of stat on buffer tank and stat on HP itself, HP turns off when this reaches 55.c

 

[marconi]

I have enough now to be getting on with. I hope to reply tomorrow morning.

 

[Themorganator4]

I have enough now to be getting on with. I hope to reply tomorrow morning.

Thank you, please see added pic to above post of stat on HP

 

[marconi]

There is a rectangular junction box with a yellow warning stick on it near the tanks and valves. Could you carefully remove the lid and take a photo of its innards for me?

I think you said the water pump does not run when only the CH demands heat - am I correct?

 

[marconi]

What I would suggest if you feel able and safe - is to do a quick wire change. Before you touch any wiring you must isolate all electricity and check afterwards it is dead - do know how to do that? The easiest way to isolate is switch off the home main switch/switches which is what I recommend you do.

What we are going to check is the operation of the 2 port Motorised Valve(2PMV) for the CH circuit and check that the water pump starts.

To do this we are going to disconnect the white wire at terminal 13 at the ASHP and label with tape or a marker pen or note the number on it so its purpose is not lost. Put its end in a connector block or WAGO and then move it of harm's way.

Now, remove the wire from terminal 10 and insert it into terminal 13 and tighten up.

Re-connect power.

Set the programmer to 'Constant HW' (or advance the switch on or press override for HW).

Next we need to create a demand for HW (yes HW) by running off from the HW tank or turning up the HW set temperature. The latter is the easiest and quickest but up to you how. Now go to the water pump and observe the green lights on it. When a HW demand is created does the water pump start? If it does, go and see of the ASHP starts - it may take a little while. If the ASHP starts wait a while and feel the radiators to see of they become warm. If the pump does not start, it may be the HW demand has not been signalled so run off some hot water to much reduce the tank water temperature. Unless a demand for HW is generated the test will not begin.

Turn the HW tank stat to its lowest set temperature, when the demand for HW ends, the water pump and ASHP should shut down.

That's the end of the test. So isolate electricity and return the white wires you removed to their original terminals.

I look forward to hearing the results. We are checking the external logic ' demand 2PMV(CH) opens and when opened start water pump', and the ASHP internal logic 'if circulant water flow detected and there is an >?? Celsius temperature difference between out and return then start ASHP'

I won't give any more explanation to avoid confusing you.

 

[Themorganator4]

What I would suggest if you feel able and safe - is to do a quick wire change. Before you touch any wiring you must isolate all electricity and check afterwards it is dead - do know how to do that? The easiest way to isolate is switch off the home main switch/switches which is what I recommend you do.

What we are going to check is the operation of the 2 port Motorised Valve(2PMV) for the CH circuit and check that the water pump starts.

To do this we are going to disconnect the white wire at terminal 13 at the ASHP and label with tape or a marker pen or note the number on it so its purpose is not lost. Put its end in a connector block or WAGO and then move it of harm's way.

Now, remove the wire from terminal 10 and insert it into terminal 13 and tighten up.

Re-connect power.

Set the programmer to 'Constant HW' (or advance the switch on or press override for HW).

Next we need to create a demand for HW (yes HW) by running off from the HW tank or turning up the HW set temperature. The latter is the easiest and quickest but up to you how. Now go to the water pump and observe the green lights on it. When a HW demand is created does the water pump start? If it does, go and see of the ASHP starts - it may take a little while. If the ASHP starts wait a while and feel the radiators to see of they become warm. If the pump does not start, it may be the HW demand has not been signalled so run off some hot water to much reduce the tank water temperature. Unless a demand for HW is generated the test will not begin.

Turn the HW tank stat to its lowest set temperature, when the demand for HW ends, the water pump and ASHP should shut down.

That's the end of the test. So isolate electricity and return the white wires you removed to their original terminals.

I look forward to hearing the results. We are checking the external logic ' demand 2PMV(CH) opens and when opened start water pump', and the ASHP internal logic 'if circulant water flow detected and there is an >?? Celsius temperature difference between out and return then start ASHP'

I won't give any more explanation to avoid confusing you.

Thank you, i shall try this shortly, one thing: the water pump works when I ask for HW or CH, it's just the heat pump which does not work when asked for CH only

 

[marconi]

Re#76 - Ok. Don't do what I asked in #75 if you agree with this statement:

'When ONLY CH selected on the programmer (HW constant off) the 2pMV(CH) opens and the water pump starts when I increase the room stat to 30C and stops when I turn the room stat to 5C.'

If you agree with this statement then I would like you instead to link terminals 11 and 12 with a short piece of wire having first isolated electricity. Then see if the ASHP will come on (and rads warm up) with only CH selected on the programmer by turning room stat up to 30C.

 

[Themorganator4]

Re#76 - Ok. Don't do what I asked in #75 if you agree with this statement:

'When ONLY CH selected on the programmer (HW constant off) the 2pMV(CH) opens and the water pump starts when I increase the room stat to 30C and stops when I turn the room stat to 5C.'

If you agree with this statement then I would like you instead to link terminals 11 and 12 with a short piece of wire having first isolated electricity. Then see if the ASHP will come on (and rads warm up) with only CH selected on the programmer by turning room stat up to 30C.

That's correct, i assume I connect terminals 11 and 12 on the junction box and not the heat pump?

 

[marconi]

Very good question - at the heat pump. I should have been much clearer :-(

 

[Themorganator4]

Very good question - at the heat pump. I should have been much clearer :-(

Done as requested, nothing at the heat pump