New kitchen does it need own fusebox or change just the mains fusebox?

[Bellendian]

Never ever let a builder do your electrics. Not only are they not qualified but they charge more than necessary a lot of the time.

Get an electrician to do it.

I think you're confusing a genuine main contractor, with some plank that works out of an estate car, potentially giving bad advice with the above statement.
There are many established bona-fide building contractors that will either have qualified sparks on the payroll or sub contract the work to qualified sparks.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a building contractor quoting to deliver an overall package of work that might require the services of many specialised and skilled subcontractors.
As for the charging aspect, well yes, you can expect a main contractor to apply a mark up to sub contract rates, as project management and ongoing liability have to be covered. I wouldn't refer to that as 'overcharging' though.

 

[Electrics]

I think you're confusing a genuine main contractor, with some plank that works out of an estate car

I'm not. 'genuine main contractor' doesn't mean he knows electrics, and neither does working out of a van. The best electrician at work works out of a hatchback.

The point was, most builders aren't going to be actually qualified or experienced to do electrics, and the ones that get someone else in who is qualified to do it are going to be mostly miles more expensive than just going directly to a firm yourself since they put loads of mark up on top for themselves.

potentially giving bad advice

'Get an electrician to do your electrics' is bad advice on an electrical forum?

 

[Bellendian]

I'm not. 'genuine main contractor' doesn't mean he knows electrics, and neither does working out of a van. The best electrician at work works out of a hatchback.

The point was, most builders aren't going to be actually qualified or experienced to do electrics, and the ones that get someone else in who is qualified to do it are going to be mostly miles more expensive than just going directly to a firm yourself since they put loads of mark up on top for themselves.


'Get an electrician to do your electrics' is bad advice on an electrical forum?

I think you mis understand my point.
The ones that employ reputable, skilled subcontractors also manage the job, time everything in, and carry the overall risk.
Many customers want a turn key one stop solution, and are happy to pay for that service, as opposed to trying to manage all the trades themselves. So it's not a case of 'they just pocket it all themselves' it's delivering a service to the customer that they want, and are happy to pay for.
To say that all customers should dismiss any builder that includes electrical work in their package of work, and say that they should have to go to the hassle of having to arrange and project manage their own spark is ridiculous.
And yes, I do think that saying a customer should not trust a reputable main contractor to deliver a quality job, and that they should have to arrange and micro manage all the trades is bad advice.

 

[Electrics]

I think you mis understand my point.
The ones that employ reputable, skilled subcontractors also manage the job, time everything in, and carry the overall risk.
Many customers want a turn key one stop solution, and are happy to pay for that service, as opposed to trying to manage all the trades themselves. So it's not a case of 'they just pocket it all themselves' it's delivering a service to the customer that they want, and are happy to pay for.
To say that all customers should dismiss any builder that includes electrical work in their package of work, and say that they should have to go to the hassle of having to arrange and project manage their own spark is ridiculous.
And yes, I do think that saying a customer should not trust a reputable main contractor to deliver a quality job, and that they should have to arrange and micro manage all the trades is bad advice.

In the real world it's hardly graft to call a spark and tell him 'it's ready for you tuesday, do you need a key' is it.

The point is most builders offering to do electrics will do them themselves and those that don't put huge markup on the price for themselves.

I can't actually believe you're taking umbrage with what i'm saying just because 1/100 'builders' will be some legit huge company who does everything properly, it's mad. The vast majority of the time, by letting a builder take care of your electrics you're getting a worse, more expensive job.

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

Jerry... Jerry... Jerry...

 

[robd]

But the first fix in the kitchen is rewiring isn't it. Plus we are changing the main consumer unit.

If there is another issue with the electrics it wouldn't be the kitchen right? First fix is before they start decorating

First fix kitchen could mean rewire or it could mean alter existing to new points and layout. Really it is no good asking us, there should be a specification of work to be done and you should understand it. You need to speak to the main contractor to go through these details so you are clear and happy before they proceed. In my experience of being self employed customer satisfaction is all down to communication and expectation levels being set i.e. you understand what it is you are agreeing to them doing before you say yes go ahead.

 

[littlespark]

Ignore the bickering.

Original question was “do I need to rewire the kitchen?”
The answer is, it depends on the condition of the cables. Some electricians may just alter and add to what’s there. Another may insist on it.
It would be easier to do it now before new kitchen goes in.
Does it “need” done?- possibly not.
Is it advisable to be done?- oh yes.

The further question of replacing the fuse board…
Any alterations to the wiring of sockets or lights are required to be protected by rcd. Even if it’s adding a socket or changing a single light point to half a dozen downlights or whatever.

As mentioned, there could be problems lurking in the original wiring on other circuits that needs sorted before they can be connected to an rcd. So replacing the whole fuse board is possible, but could be a lot of time sorting problems.

Adding a second distribution board beside the fuse box just for the kitchen is also a valid solution, but you may think it’s a waste to put it in if you’re planning to replace the entire fuse box in the future.

You could add a second box that is big enough replace the fuse box, but have the spare ways blanked off. Then, in the future, move the circuits from old box to new.


The end result here, is you want a new kitchen fitted, where everything works, and you don’t want to rip bits out of it to repair a fault that could have been fixed before the kitchen went in.
How that is done is up to you through discussions with the guys doing the work.

I’m sure there are good builders out there…. And if your builders electrician suggests rewiring the kitchen, then I’d go with that.
If the builders electrician just adds to what’s there… then you should question it.

We have all come across bodge jobs by builders and kitchen fitters, like I said back in #13: They might cut corners. They might joint a cable and tile over it. They might not add the rcd protection that is now required.


It’s down to you yourself deciding either your own trusted electrician, or the one supplied by the builder, who may have good recommendations, but who you don’t actually know.

 

[Mikegh]

First fix kitchen could mean rewire or it could mean alter existing to new points and layout. Really it is no good asking us, there should be a specification of work to be done and you should understand it. You need to speak to the main contractor to go through these details so you are clear and happy before they proceed. In my experience of being self employed customer satisfaction is all down to communication and expectation levels being set i.e. you understand what it is you are agreeing to them doing before you say yes go ahead.

^ you're right there ,I shouldnt have called 1st fix a rewire , it may just be extending kitchen circuits as you say

In my world when a builder gives an all inclusive price , he's included his electricians price plus a markup

At the dodgier end of the business some builders will be hiring unqualified guys to boost their overall profit, never really heard of this with respectable builders

 

[DPG]

^ you're right there ,I shouldnt have called 1st fix a rewire , it may just be extending kitchen circuits as you say

In my world when a builder gives an all inclusive price , he's included his electricians price plus a markup

At the dodgier end of the business some builders will be hiring unqualified guys to boost their overall profit, never really heard of this with respectable builders

Absolutely. It's certainly not correct to say that all building companies that include electrical work in projects are no good.

It's like saying all lecturers are no good, or all training colleges are no good.

After all, I'm sure we'd all be a bit upset if someone had a bad experience with an electrician, and then went round saying all sparkies are no good.

 

[Mikegh]

Absolutely. It's certainly not correct to say that all building companies that include electrical work in projects are no good.

It's like saying all lecturers are no good, or all training colleges are no good.

After all, I'm sure we'd all be a bit upset if someone had a bad experience with an electrician, and then went round saying all sparkies are no good.

Most of the semi-dodgy builders will still get a registered electrician ime anyway

They just don't want the hassle that comes with using bad sparks

 

[brianmoooore]

You could add a second box that is big enough replace the fuse box, but have the spare ways blanked off. Then, in the future, move the circuits from old box to new.

I was just going to post something similar, but I'll repeat littlespark's post instead.
The existing fusebox is in a position that is unacceptable to comply with current regs and recommendations so mount the a new one of sufficient capacity to serve the whole house in an acceptable position, preferably moving the incoming supply to feed it, and then feeding the existing board temporarily from the new, via a RCD or RCBO. If this results in this RCD tripping, then that just proves that a part of the original wiring is in a dangerous condition, and obviously this will need to be addressed immediately.
Some might question connecting the whole original board as a 'final circuit' from the new board, if this 'circuit' does not comply with modern regs., but this is where I consider a qualified electrician should be able to over rule the letter of the regs with his expertise.

 

[Ell4848]

^ you're right there ,I shouldnt have called 1st fix a rewire , it may just be extending kitchen circuits as you say

In my world when a builder gives an all inclusive price , he's included his electricians price plus a markup

At the dodgier end of the business some builders will be hiring unqualified guys to boost their overall profit, never really heard of this with respectable builders

Guys,
the builders electrician will be doing 1st & 2nd fix electrics in the kitchen & changing the fusebox, however he said they can't issue a certificate without testing the rest of the house and because he's only doing that its very difficult to get a certificate

Am I able to at least get a minor works certificate? Doesn't changing fusebox require a certificate & building control?

 

[SJD]

Yes, changing a fuse box requires a certificate and notification to building control. A minor works certificate is not appropriate for a new consumer unit / fuse box.

All circuits on the new unit should be tested to ensure they are satisfactory for continued service (sorry, I've not read all 50+ posts, so don't understand why that is not being done).

EDIT: Are you sure the builders electrician is a member of a CPS and able to notify the work. It just occurred to me he could be looking for an excuse not to because he is unable to notify?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Guys,
the builders electrician will be doing 1st & 2nd fix electrics in the kitchen & changing the fusebox, however he said they can't issue a certificate without testing the rest of the house and because he's only doing that its very difficult to get a certificate

Am I able to at least get a minor works certificate? Doesn't changing fusebox require a certificate & building control?

Changing fusebox requires full testing of all circuits. A full EIC certificate must be issued, and building control notification.

GET ANOTHER ELECTRICIAN TO DO THIS WORK

 

[Ell4848]

Yes, changing a fuse box requires a certificate and notification to building control. A minor works certificate is not appropriate for a new consumer unit / fuse box.

All circuits on the new unit should be tested to ensure they are satisfactory for continued service (sorry, I've not read all 50+ posts, so don't understand why that is not being done).

EDIT: Are you sure the builders electrician is a member of a CPS and able to notify the work. It just occurred to me he could be looking for an excuse not to because he is unable to notify?

 

[Ell4848]

The kitchen is being refurbished completely & the electrician is doing first and 2nd fix electrics with a new main fusebox

They are registered but are not testing the rest of the house. What options do I have for certification if only these things will be done?

 

[SJD]

The kitchen is being refurbished completely & the electrician is doing first and 2nd fix electrics with a new main fusebox

They are registered but are not testing the rest of the house. What options do I have for certification if only these things will be done?

Either (a) the electrician tests all the house and issues an EIC plus notifies the work, or (b) you get someone else to change the consumer unit who can test all the house etc.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

The kitchen is being refurbished completely & the electrician is doing first and 2nd fix electrics with a new main fusebox

They are registered but are not testing the rest of the house. What options do I have for certification if only these things will be done?

My previous post tells you all you need to know. It is as simple as that. If the electrician won't provide this, you have 2 choices:

1 - Accept that you are taking a gamble by using an electrician that won't issue proper certification, and will not carry out compliant work.

2 - GET SOMEONE ELSE TO DO THE WORK

 

[Ell4848]

Either (a) the electrician tests all the house and issues an EIC plus notifies the work, or (b) you get someone else to change the consumer unit who can test all the house etc.

If we get another electrician to do the fusebox & the builders later add to the circuit how does that work? Would i need another certificate for added circuits or can their electrician work with a fusebox installed by another electrician,?

 

[SJD]

If we get another electrician to do the fusebox & the builders later add to the circuit how does that work? Would i need another certificate for added circuits or can their electrician work with a fusebox installed by another electrician,?

A certificate is required for any new circuit, the bulders electrician should be able to supply that - covering just the new circuit(s). If not, then he should not be doing the work!

And yes, I often install a consumer unit and new circuits are added later by someone else, e.g. for a new kitchen.

EDIT again: Are you really sure the electrician is still registered. I was talking to my CPS assessor yesterday, it seems many contractors have just 'disappeared' over the last 18 months, presumably because they no longer had the funds to continue their scheme membership.

 

[DPG]

@Electrics - have you changed your username from 'Camoelectric' ?

 

[nicebutdim]

@Electrics - have you changed your username from 'Camoelectric' ?

He has - took me some time to put it together.

 

[Ell4848]

Does the fusebox need to be changed before or after the kitchen installation?

 

[SJD]

If I recall, there will be new circuits for the kitchen, so it would be better to change the fusebox first, so the kitchen electrician has a new consumer unit to connect his circuits into. Otherwise he/she might just leave the cable ends dangling for someone else to connect later. (And might even use it as an excuse not to provide a certiifcate.)

 

[Ell4848]

It will be just a new plug socket and the cooker will be moved approximately 50cm to the left side

 

[Ell4848]

Hi Guys

We decided on rewiring in kitchen with its own fusebox

The electrician did the first fix stage and is coming back next week for the fusebox and second fix. I forgot to mention to him about the light, its going to be the same length batton strip light just a newer one. They are starting the plastering tomorrow including skimming the ceiling etc

Is this going to be a problem or can he just change the light over with the new one after the plastering is done
.thank you

 

[DPG]

Hi Guys

We decided on rewiring in kitchen with its own fusebox

The electrician did the first fix stage and is coming back next week for the fusebox and second fix. I forgot to mention to him about the light, its going to be the same length batton strip light just a newer one. They are starting the plastering tomorrow including skimming the ceiling etc

Is this going to be a problem or can he just change the light over with the new one after the plastering is done
.thank you

You need to speak to him to be honest. But you don't want to skim round the existing fitting and then change it.

 

[Ell4848]

You need to speak to him to be honest. But you don't want to skim round the existing fitting and then change it.

We're not changing the fitting just the light itself inside, the batton. I dont know how this works so I don't know if he has to change the wiring because of the new fusebox he is putting in next week

 

[Ell4848]

We're not changing the fitting just the light itself inside, the batton. I dont know how this works so I don't know if he has to change the wiring because of the new fusebox he is putting in next week

Basically the light shape will be the same its a long batton kind of light

 

[Ell4848]

Oh its the fitting. Does he need to rewire or can it be changed over. Can the plasterers work around it

 

[littlespark]

So the kitchen light will be on the old wiring, instead of being on the new fuse box?

Probably better that way so there is light when the new box is being worked on.

 

[DPG]

So the kitchen light will be on the old wiring, instead of being on the new fuse box?

Probably better that way so there is light when the new box is being worked on.

I took it that it would be on the kitchen supply, but the cable needed replacing. Having said that, I'm confused now.

OP, I think you should make sure your sparky and plasterer are both working to the same plan.

 

[Ell4848]

I took it that it would be on the kitchen supply, but the cable needed replacing. Having said that, I'm confused now.

OP, I think you should make sure your sparky and plasterer are both working to the same plan.

The fusebox will be in a cupboard next to the kitchen. He hasn't done anything with the wiring for the main light does this have to be on the new fusebox or can he simply change the fitting after the plastering is done. Its the same length and design just a modern one

 

[pc1966]

The fusebox will be in a cupboard next to the kitchen. He hasn't done anything with the wiring for the main light does this have to be on the new fusebox or can he simply change the fitting after the plastering is done. Its the same length and design just a modern one

Assuming the wire is in good condition then it is fine just to replace the baton light (presumably with a new LED style).

 

[Ell4848]

Assuming the wire is in good condition then it is fine just to replace the baton light (presumably with a new LED style).

With a very similar fitting too? It won't affect the plastering?

 

[DPG]

With a very similar fitting too? It won't affect the plastering?

Surely the light fitting won't be fitted on the ceiling while the plastering is being done? Is that what you mean - the plasterer will plaster around the fitting?

 

[Ell4848]

Surely the light fitting won't be fitted on the ceiling while the plastering is being done? Is that what you mean - the plasterer will plaster around the fitting?

What i mean is if they plaster around the old fitting then replace the new one which is the same length and width do you think the plasterers can do that . And new wiring won't be needed for this. He has done first fix electrics elsewhere in the kitchen and added new sockets etc

 

[nicebutdim]

What i mean is if they plaster around the old fitting then replace the new one which is the same length and width do you think the plasterers can do that . And new wiring won't be needed for this. He has done first fix electrics elsewhere in the kitchen and added new sockets etc

Get the electrician involved well before any plastering takes place.

 

[DPG]

Get the electrician involved well before any plastering takes place.

I can't see the sense in having a nice freshly plastered ceiling but plastering around a light fitting which you don't even want.

Am I missing something? Please someone tell me if I am.

 

[Ell4848]

I can't see the sense in having a nice freshly plastered ceiling but plastering around a light fitting which you don't even want.

Am I missing something? Please someone tell me if I am.

Its going to be replaced with an identical one