You need scrambled brains to sort this!

[Knobhead]

This was posted on one of the other forums I go on. Just see if you can work out this fault (it's been on a bit of a body building course).

Dear Sirs,

In our plant we have 2no.s substations no.1 substation has a main switchboard with 2no.s11/.44KV 1600KVA tx They connected to switchboard by 2no.s acbs and a bustie. No.2 substation has no tx it is supplyed by 2no.s acbs from substation 1 it has bestie. I have removed bustie nutral at substation 1 all single ph thing are fed from substation 2 bustie open with nutral. The earth abcs at no1 swichboard keep trips they feed switchboard2
Can you help pleasse

There have been a couple of threads in the last few weeks with exactly the same fault. I’ll post a drawing later but that would give the game away to quickly. You have to try and picture it from the description.

E54 and Malcolm are not allowed to answer.

 

[Engineer54]

Your just a spoil sport!!! :angel_smile:

 

[malcolmsanford]

Col .....................l'm sitting on my hands here .....................

 

[ian.settle1]

Get someone who knows what their talking about to do the posting correctly

bustie? does it have big -----

bestie? bestie what

Think his brain is scrambled

 

[Richard Burns]

In our plant we have 2no.s substations no.1 substation has a main switchboard with 2no.s11/.44KV 1600KVA tx They connected to switchboard by 2no.s acbs and a bustie. No.2 substation has no tx it is supplyed by 2no.s acbs from substation 1 it has bestie. I have removed bustie nutral at substation 1 all single ph thing are fed from substation 2 bustie open with nutral. The earth abcs at no1 swichboard keep trips they feed switchboard2

That is a description!!! I would try to answer but know I would just look foolish.
However for Ian from the urban dictionary: bustie - a girl who puts out
It is starting to look like a better description but I can't imagine why he removed them or what they are like when open with nutral!

 

[Chr!s]

Bustie should be Bus tie as in two Bus tied via a Breaker.

 

[Knobhead]

First point to the man from Staffordshire

View attachment 14741

 

[Guest123]

Quote "I have removed bustie nutral at substation 1"

Does that mean there isn't a neutral being supplied to sub-station 2 where all the "single ph thing are fed from"

Meaning that the earthing is being used as a return path for all the SP loads causing the ACB's to trip???

 

[ian.settle1]

Bustie should be Bus tie as in two Bus tied via a Breaker.

Known it to be called a bus coupler as well

 

[Knobhead]

Quote "I have removed bustie nutral at substation 1"

Does that mean there isn't a neutral being supplied to sub-station 2 where all the "single ph thing are fed from"

Meaning that the earthing is being used as a return path for all the SP loads causing the ACB's to trip???

Nope!

You think this board is a headache, we have these all the time! Half the fun is trying to fathom out just what the OP is on about.

PS your warm, but no coconut. You'll kick you're self when I show the drawing.

 

[Knobhead]

Known it to be called a bus coupler as well

Bus tie, bus-coupler, bus section,,,,,,, All the same flavour. The Indians favour bus-tie, the Americans bus-coupler.

 

[Chr!s]

No neutral, no star point, unbalanced loading Affecting voltages.

 

[Knobhead]

OK first clue:

Think of neutrals and CU's

 

[plugsandsparks]

Wild guess, their CT wiring is wrong way round

 

[Guest123]

Substation 2 is getting it's 3 phases from ACB1 whilst the neutral is returning on ACB2 due to the bus-coupler being open giving unbalanced loads as they're 1P???

 

[johnboy6083]

is this a TNC system?

 

[ian.settle1]

No neutral 400v across single phase equipment

 

[johnboy6083]

thats kinda the route im thinking, the lost neutral situation, neutral currents returning via the metalwork. Does this system incorporate phase failure relays that would shunt trip the ACB on voltage imbalance?
where are the neutral-earth bonds for the star point of the tx? if any

 

[Knobhead]

I should have banned you Lenny. In effect it's our old friend a shared neutral.

Here's the drawing I had to do to work it out.

View attachment 14750

 

[Knobhead]

The guy still wouldn’t accept it.
It’s not very often you get a Indian university professor loosing his rag, but he convinced the guy I was right.

 

[Knobhead]

Thanks to all that had a go.

 

[Richard Burns]

Well done Lenny, I couldn't even work out why there were breakers in the earth or whether there was a neutral connected at all!
Thanks for the diagram Tony one massive amount clearer than the "description"

 

[johnboy6083]

Keep em coming Tony. I like this type of thread. It's better than the my light doesn't work, can you tell me how to do my job?

 

[Knobhead]

Keep em coming Tony. I like this type of thread. It's better than the my light doesn't work, can you tell me how to do my job?

I'll have to introduce you to Coolyer, one of our serial giberish posters. He doesn't react to being insulted!

 

[Engineer54]

Tony's diagram shows exactly why you should never have 3 pole ACB's and solid neutral on dual feed switchboards!!! This problem would never have occurred if all the ACB's were 4 pole.... Same situation occurs when you have a stand-by generator included in the switchboard arrangement, using 3 pole ACB's (breakers). The stray neutral currents fly all over the system unbalancing and tripping out any earth fault relay protection incorporated on the system....

 

[mogga]

the diagrame makes it 100%understandable but im glad i stick to 400v stuff n leave the higher stuff for those who know what they are talking about

 

[Knobhead]

It’s not just ACB’s as E54 pointed out, but many switches have a removable neutral links. It’s all to easy to overlook refitting them after testing.
In the drawing the most important link that should have left in was the one between the two transformer sections.

 

[Engineer54]

It’s not just ACB’s as E54 pointed out, but many switches have a removable neutral links. It’s all to easy to overlook refitting them after testing.
In the drawing the most important link that should have left in was the one between the two transformer sections.

If the ACB's were all 4 pole, then the only removable links on the system would be the two N-E links between the N and E bus bars. (Earth bar not shown on the drawing)

But if the system installed is as in the drawing, then yes the links will be everywhere on a 3 pole breaker + solid Neutral system...

 

[Engineer54]

the diagrame makes it 100%understandable but im glad i stick to 400v stuff n leave the higher stuff for those who know what they are talking about

Err, ....this ''IS'' all 400 Volt stuff!!! Only untill you get to the other side of the TX's will you be in MV territory!! ...lol!!!

 

[Knobhead]

I suppose the beauty of the systems I’ve worked on is you would never come across earth fault protection until well away from the main boards. All the transformers had REF obviously. The main neutral at the transformer switchboards were always kept continuous, links were removed for dead testing only.
RCD’s were as rare as hen’s teeth. About the only place you would find them would be in the few sockets used by the conveyor belt vulcanises, these had to have pilot/earth monitoring as well.
It was a shock to the system when the portable tool rules were relaxed to allow 110V, previously it was 50V centre tapped. Portable welding plant was unheard of, it had to be fixed or diesel.
Just before I came out of my time I was working in the contracts management office, I had fun! Can we use…… NO! What about….. NO! Suppose we can’t use the bloody kettle can we? NO, plenty of fixed mashing urns about the site, you use them. I was only applying the rules, but I made a meal of it.
The first computers on site caused chaos. We found a way around that eventually by getting the M&Q inspector to issue dispensation for offices. Then came the plant control rooms, it got messy. The 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century caught up with us in the end. Things changed from trying to find ways round the rules to applying them.

PS the earth bars are on the drawing.

 

[Chr!s]

Err, ....this ''IS'' all 400 Volt stuff!!! Only untill you get to the other side of the TX's will you be in MV territory!! ...lol!!!

But there are lots of differing protection schemes for various systems, you need to be able to calculate the fault levels through out the system, so you need to understand the Mv side of things to set up your Protection scheme. Their is a lot of Math involved, its degree level not 2330 lol.

 

[Engineer54]

But there are lots of differing protection schemes for various systems, you need to be able to calculate the fault levels through out the system, so you need to understand the Mv side of things to set up your Protection scheme. Their is a lot of Math involved, its degree level not 2330 lol.

Very true, there are protection relays on the LV switchboard that will intentionally trip out the TX feeder on the MV side of things. But the fault levels throughout the system, would have been calculated long before the MV and LV main switchboards were even ordered, You can't change a switchboards fault level rating, not without virtually dismantling the thing anyway. The preliminary ''Protection Co-Ordination Study'' is also calculated prior to the design/layout and manufacture of the Switchboards, The settings finalised after full testing and commissioning has been completed, and final adjustments to settings on protection relays and/or ACB integrated protection settings made. Which will also affect all downstream protection set-ups in sub-main panels and even beyond...

But having said all that, to all intendant purposes, the LV switchboard will still be a 400 volt system. Agreed probably outside the scope and experience of most installation electricians that are not involved in industrial or large commercial projects.... My comment was only meant to basically point out that, we aren't talking about MV, but to a 400 volt LV main distribution system...

 

[Engineer54]

PS the earth bars are on the drawing.

I know what the earth symbol would mean on your drawing and why, for clarity. But to others that are not aware the TX N-E link would be made at the Main Switchboard, it wouldn't be obvious. The main LV earthing/bonding arrangements would be connected to a substantial earth bar (also with a removable link for testing purposes) located on a convenient sub-station wall.

 

[Knobhead]

Fair comment, it's a case of I've always drawn them that way. At the end of the day the drawing wasn't intended for here.

I'm on the look out for something similar, It's got to be readable but not obvious.
It can develop in to fun when guys from all over the world can't even agree a translation. It doesn’t help when you’ve a guy from Sri Lanka describing a protection fault on a turbo-alternator using every acronym you could think of interspersed with TXT (SMS) talk. The replys can get a bit colourful (not in a racist way though).

There’s one I can think of that’s mechanical involving a motor and a ball mill. By the time we’d realised all the gearbox calculations were arse about face we would have built a centrifuge.