adding new socket

[electrician4u]

can someone tell me if it's still obligatory to install an rcd when adding a socket outlet if there's not one already. I know the 17th says yes but at a seminar i attended in Dec '10 it was said to be imminent that that rule was being changed. for me, it makes no sense when adding a socket on a flat on the 40th floor of a tower block if the reasoning is it could be used to supply an electric lawnmower!

 

[malcolmsanford]

There was a proposal that in the 1st amendment to the BS 7671-2008 that for a MEIWC that a risk assessment could have been made, such as you have done and that the use for RCD protection could be omitted.

It would seem though that this was rejected and therefore you will still need to provide RCD protection for a socket outlets as per 411.3.3 and to cable as per 622.6.7.

 

[telectrix]

easiest way is to fit an RCDFCU next to the socket you are coming off. that will give the cable and your new socket RCD protection and, if you are fitting as a spur, a 13A FCU will allow the addition of extra sockets in the future.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Tel what are you thoughts of fitting a piggy back enclosure with a 32amp 30mA RCD in it, taking the ring out of the existing CU into the RCD and feeding the RCD from the vacated CU, that way you would have all the circuit on RCD protection.

Too costly time wise ? Too costly material?

 

[truckster]

Tel what are you thoughts of fitting a piggy back enclosure with a 32amp 30mA RCD in it, taking the ring out of the existing CU into the RCD and feeding the RCD from the vacated CU, that way you would have all the circuit on RCD protection.

Too costly time wise ? Too costly material?

Thats my preferred method if I can't get an rcbo to fit but it comes down to cost and whether the client will stump up. I emphasise the safety aspect but not all clients seem to think their life is worth a few quid.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Is it cost Truck what is an RCD spur 25 notes and a small 4 way enclosure and an RCBO can't be that much more is it.

I suppose then though you have the normal spur and the fitting of that so it would be slightly more expensive.

 

[truckster]

As you say Malcolm there can be a small difference but even that will dissuade some from laying out. £50 a month for Sky TV? no prob, an extra thirty quid for a safer cct? intake of breath!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Bear in mind that you are permitted to install a non-RCD protected socket for a specific item of equipment as per 411.3.3 (b)......which can sometimes be used as a get out in these circumstances.
Bear in mind also that Bs 7671 is not statutory and if you can justify you do not have to comply. To my way of thinking installing an RCD-FCU for one socket in the circumstances described by the OP just so that you comply with the regs is extreme daftness when no other sockets are protected. Either protect the whole lot or dont bother I'm inclined to think.

 

[telectrix]

Tel what are you thoughts of fitting a piggy back enclosure with a 32amp 30mA RCD in it, taking the ring out of the existing CU into the RCD and feeding the RCD from the vacated CU, that way you would have all the circuit on RCD protection.

Too costly time wise ? Too costly material?

did that the other week, if by piggy back you mean fitting RCD enclosure alongside CU and feeding from 0306 fuse to RCD then to circuit. best way really --- the the whole circuit is protected. bit of a bugger if there's leakage on the old socket circuit though, if you haven't allowed for testing /rectification beforehand.

edit dyslexic 3036!

 

[truckster]

Bear in mind that you are permitted to install a non-RCD protected socket for a specific item of equipment as per 411.3.3 (b)......which can sometimes be used as a get out in these circumstances.
Bear in mind also that Bs 7671 is not statutory and if you can justify you do not have to comply. To my way of thinking installing an RCD-FCU for one socket in the circumstances described by the OP just so that you comply with the regs is extreme daftness when no other sockets are protected. Either protect the whole lot or dont bother I'm inclined to think.

I do sympathise with your opinion and in a right thinking world it perhaps should be so, however it is me that has to comply and my a*** that has to be covered.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Agree with that Tel it would be a bit of a head drop if you did all the work and it tripped on something stupid, like a N-E reverse in a socket or JB, so an ideal world protect the whole ring, real world save grief and just RCD FCU the socket(s) your doing

Did you think that the IET did the right thing by dismissing the risk assessment for the MEIWC and omiting RCD protection ?

I agree with WP it is a little cranky to have one socket that you installed as a spur in a front room on RCD protection, but 10 other sockets not on it, and a kitchen one that can be used for equipment outside.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The Regulations require RCD protection for socket-outlets, intended for general use by ordinary persons.
So if the socket-outlet is intended for a specific purpose, RCD protection is not required.
Of course the cabling to the socket-outlet might require RCD protection, if not and RCD protection is deemed neccessary, why not an RCD socket-outlet?

 

[electrician4u]

I'm certainly with Wirepuller on this. I think the IET made a big mistake not giving us the credit to make an informed decision.The regs to me are full of contradictions. The fact that even if you find re-wireable fuses in a house it is still deemed to be safe is a joke when they are insisting on adding a RCD for a socket in such unnecessary circumstances.most customers with think sod that, i'll do it myself or get someone who doesn't follow the regs. the IET are both losing us money and encouraging illegal work

 

[telectrix]

agreed, but as BS7671 is non -statutory, does that not give us the right to make an informed decision, based on the usage of the socket? however, should there be an incident, who would get the blame if BS7671 was not followed?

 

[electrician4u]

do you know in the event of an incident, are we cover by indemnity insurance if we've not followed the regs?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Liability Insurance would cover you for that ........................and I would imagine the stamp on your policy saying "Nulled" would not have dried before the insurance company had the great delight in telling you that you will need to prove what you did was of the same standard as the BS 7671-2008, before paying out

 

[telectrix]

and if that doesn't work, they'll find out you has a speeding ticket in 1963 and invalidate your policy because you didn't declare it.