Extension

[davethsparky]

Saw a link to this website on another forum, thought we could all have a game of spot the diy electrical disasters!

I'll set the ball rolling with the T+E layed across the floor ready to be smashed to bits, you can see someone has already kicked it in one of the pictures, and that's before the plasterers started!

Quality use of what looks like the push fit flexy link you get with a shower pump in the plumbing too!

 

[trev]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Oh dear me, where to start.

 

[Toby Kuhnert]

Re: how not to wire your extension

flippin' builders...

 

[trbod]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Can't see link/pics ?

 

[trev]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Can't see link/pics ?

My Extension | All About My Extension, from Start to Finish

 

[ExArmy]

Re: how not to wire your extension

ha! as if they used rockwool to insulate the cavity!!
if theres one thing i hate it's people having a go at something and then doing it wrong. it's like they are saying "your job is so easy i can do it just as good and alot cheaper!!"
and i hate seeing a job half done, for 3/4 of the price of doing it properly, or even worse they spend even more and still end up cocking it up.

 

[ExArmy]

Re: how not to wire your extension

that roof is an absolute abortion!

 

[ExArmy]

Re: how not to wire your extension

scrap that, the whole thing is an abortion!

 

[londonfire]

Day 23. "Channel dug for new tap pipe" using a blunt shovel to dislodge bits of brick by the looks of it. Shocking work.

 

[ferg]

Re: how not to wire your extension

It might just be my crap eyesight but it looks like there is T&E between the plaster board and back box on the lower socket.
Amongst many other shockers.

 

[ferg]

Re: how not to wire your extension

deleted post

 

[telectrix]

Re: how not to wire your extension

safe zone????? View attachment 20335

 

[ExArmy]

Re: how not to wire your extension

who in their right mind runs cables under a block and beam floor. that looks like it's going to get screeded or concreted in!

 

[ferg]

Re: how not to wire your extension

This looks like a job for Dom Jolly or whatever his name is.
Maybe Mellinda might get him some free furniture out of it

 

[Jdsparky]

Once all covered up and lights are on the people who go round for him to show off his shiny new extension will be none the wiser, and think it's a good job, then probably use the 'builder' on their house

 

[telectrix]

Re: how not to wire your extension

just seen in his text. builders installed the cables... nuff said.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Re: how not to wire your extension

I cringed looking through that. No at the blog, at the workmanship. Or lack thereof

 

[jonwade]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Hi.

Is this is safety concern or just not up to current standards?

Cables are under a waterproof lining, under solid insulation (Celotex).

The building inspector has been out to see the site at all the required times but did not raise any concerns.

Screed due to go down tomorrow, so if it is something that is really bad, please let me know, and let me know what should be done in the morning.

Thank you.

 

[davethsparky]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Based on the pics there i'd say put the screed off for a bit, call an electrician and a plumber to come to site and advise on what you have there.

And report whoever has done your wiring to whichever part P scam they are registered with (yeah right) and trading standards.

 

[jonwade]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Can you elaborate at all? I have read all the comments here, but I am not clear on whether this is dangerous or just not as neat and tidy as it could be.

If I was to call Trading Standard what would I say to them?

 

[davethsparky]

Re: how not to wire your extension

You really need someone to attend the site and look over the installation and all of the pictures you have to give you an accurate report on the installation. But I would suggest that based on the pictures you've been done over by a cowboy!

A few points that stick out to me are:

You have cables installed across the floor which have no doubt been trampled by everyone working on site so the insulation and sheath will likely have been destroyed, possibly may even have short circuits in the cables already.

may need to install bonding to bridge the plastic joints in the copper pipe, cant see where it goes or what it does but this needs checking.

Cables installed behind the plasterboard not in the safe zones and not protected from penetration by nails, screws and the like.

There appear to be choc blocks stuffed in the wall where a socket has been removed.

An outside light point with the bricks hollowed out a bit and choc blocks in it next to the old extractor outlet.

The cables across the floor will be exposed to cement slurry when it is applied to the floor, that cable coming into contact with cement, especially whilst wet, is a big no-no as far as the regulations are concerned as it can damage the cables

 

[jonwade]

Re: how not to wire your extension

The plastic pipe is for the pipe that connects the outside tap.

What is a safe zone?

I guess choc blocks are the white plastic connectors - I saw these taped up. Is that sufficient?

The cables on the floor were covered with the waterproof membrane. I know the builder mentioned slurry weeks ago, not sure how this would now come in to contact with the cables?

I will see if I can get somebody to look, but my builder has been doing extension for over 20 years and used to be qualified to do electrics, but now gets somebody else in to check the electrics. I think this is tomorrow. Maybe I will ask a few questions like "is it OK without conduits?".

 

[davethsparky]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Whoever he is getting to look at it will say it is fine regardless of the condition and ten take his cash and run!

The cable shouldn't be under the moisture barrier and then pass up through it or round it as this can provide a path for moisture to get past the barrier. local authority building control should be able to advise on this better than I can.

Doing electrics for 20 years doesn't qualify him for anything, it just means he may have been doing it wrong for the last 20 years.

Taped up choc blocks is not sufficient for anything! connections must be made in a suitable enclosure and teh cables secured so that no strain can be put on the connection. and if any form of screwed connection is used it must be left accessible.

The cables on the floor will now be underneath the insulation which will affect their current carrying capacity, they may very well need to be a bigger size to allow for this depending on the type of circuit installed and the design.

Ask him to prove he has installed the correct cable size by showing you the calculations he carried out when designing the circuit. He will likely say it is a standard circuit and doesn't need calculating, ask him to show you this standard circuit in his regulations book (thsi isn't a trick question they are in there)

Ask for his mate who checks it's part P scheme registration number and contact the scheme operator for help.

A safe zone in this situation is the zones of the wall in which cables may be buried without additional mechanical protection against penetration and or and earthed metal covering. There is a good picture in the on-site guide which eh will be able to show you if he has a copy as he should have if doing this work.

The situation with regards earthing the pipe would need to be looked at on site, as it will be buried in the screed it could become an extraneous part and need bonding, but that really does need looking at in the flesh.

Personally I wouldn't be happy to have anything other than properly soldered plumbing connections buried anywhere, but maybe that's because i've seen too many leaking joints under screed floors.

 

[davethsparky]

Re: how not to wire your extension

A quick google search found this which gives an idea of how the safe zones thing works

Cable Safe Zones | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

The cables in the pic in post 13 don't appear to be in a safe zone

 

[gutterball]

Re: how not to wire your extension

where do the cables for the extension come from? are they off a socket or directly into the consumer unit. are they rcd protected.
when the guy comes to test ask him to show you the ir test for the cable run across the floor. there's a good chance that its been damaged.

 

[davethsparky]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Damage possibly won't show on an IR test straight away, just wait until the moisture gets into it as its on the wrong side of the moisture barrier!

 

[gutterball]

Chances are that if its the builders mate it will ba a drive by.

 

[jonwade]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Does anybody know someone in Chelmsford who would be able to look and advise?

I am at a loss what to do, getting in a panic.

Left message with building control. Will speak to the builder about it, but sounds like this could put back building by days which is a PITA. Want it done right though.

 

[Dubbo]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Does anybody know someone in Chelmsford who would be able to look and advise?I am at a loss what to do, getting in a panic.Left message with building control. Will speak to the builder about it, but sounds like this could put back building by days which is a PITA. Want it done right though.

I would say let the screed go down then find someone qualified to rewire the sockets properly using a different route, I could pick lots of faults with the job like gaps around insulation and rock wool put in were Celotex should be used , no dpc barrier were the extension walls join the existing property they should of been cut with sthil saw and dpc inserted to stop bridging, to me he has no pride in his work for small details finished job may look ok but under the surface is rough sorry to slate just been honest

 

[danzor]

This is your house jonwade? Someone just found a random link to your extension? Or have I missed something

 

[jonwade]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Danzor, it is my extension.

Dubbo - this is what my wife suggested. Once the build work is completed we could get an electrician in to fit a proper junction box on the socket that feeds the extension and then re-test all other sockets. Maybe then, worse case scenario is running new cables through the walls and re-plastering and painting. Maybe not the end of the world.

I am keen not to upset things, these builders did come recommended and have been doing extensions for 20 odd years. As Davethsparky said, does not mean they are great electricians of course.

I had a plumber look and he said that while he would personally also solder, the push fit connections are now designed for mains so OK.

I spoke to Building Control and they said that they do not look at electrics but so long as it is all checked a cleared by an electrician it is considered OK.

From all the great advice here, I think it possibly comes down to:

1. The 2 choc blocks are not ideal and maybe they could be replaced later with a proper junction box.
2. The main cable which runs across the floor should be checked on a regular basis to test for wear/tear.

Regarding insulation, to rock wool was only used in the roof above the Celotex - 2 layers of insulation were pout up there, all in line with architect design and building regs. The walls had similar sheets of cavity wall. The roof is solid - over engineered according to the building inspector, I have no issue with that.

I will take Dubbo's advice and invite a local electrician to take a good look, ideally between the builders finishing and building control doing their final inspection.

Going back to the floor - could the cable really get damp? The block and beam sits on the damp course bricks, they are aired underneath (suspended). So the layer between the sheet and the blocks (where the cable is) should not get wet should it? I cannot see how any water / moisture would get there (not saying it can't!).

The safe zone is something to consider - I guess this can be sorted later too - remove plaster / board, fit and re-plaster?

If some of the building work is not up to today's standard I am more keen to get it completed and then reviewed, rather than ask the builders to change everything. This will cause even more stress I think.

Thanks again for your advice - I know the thread started out as a "look at this rubbish work!" thread but it has proved very useful to me. Although maybe next time make contact privately first and suggest solutions?

Cheers

Jon.

 

[trev]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Jon you're paying for this job and so are entitled to it being right when it's completed, all this talk of removal of things then recitification then refitting is madness imho. All it will do is cost you more, there's a few lads on here from down your neck of the woods. Dave85, Essexboy7 and a few others, there's a thread somewhere, electricians unite I think, called find an electrician in your area trawl through it and find someone who can come and take a look at this BEFORE it goes too far mate.
Now obviously, me being on Tyneside, there's no way I can vouch for someone's work who is in Essex but there's been a few who have had Essexboy7 referred to them and not one has ever come back on here complaining about him so make of that what you will.
Please don't leave this till it's too late as it will only cost you more money, stress and strain on your relationships with your loved ones.

 

[jonwade]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Thanks.

 

[davethsparky]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Danzor, it is my extension.


2. The main cable which runs across the floor should be checked on a regular basis to test for wear/tear.

No it should not be installed in such a way that it can sustain foreseeable and predictable damage. If it has to run under the screed then it should be installed as close as possible to the time when the screed goes down and be provided with adequate protection against damage.

 

[davethsparky]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Danzor, it is my extension.

Going back to the floor - could the cable really get damp? The block and beam sits on the damp course bricks, they are aired underneath (suspended). So the layer between the sheet and the blocks (where the cable is) should not get wet should it? I cannot see how any water / moisture would get there (not saying it can't!).

They aren't putting a waterproof membrane in there just for fun! the concern is not so much about the cable getting damp, but of the cable passing from one side to the other of the membrane forming a route for damp to travel in.
Have you asked building control about this? they are the best people to advise on this. I would be getting the building control inspector to come and have a look.

I would also be concerned about their lax attitude towards the electrics, it is a building regs matter (part P of the building regs) and as such they should be there to help you with the matter if you have any reason to doubt that the work is comliant.

 

[Des 56]

Re: how not to wire your extension

The sorry conclusion to this saga was never in doubt
p://www.------.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=53932&enterthread=y

 

[davethsparky]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Amazing that so many electricians have looked at it and said it is acceptable!

Am I working to the wrong set of standards or is this just starting to smell fishy?

 

[Des 56]

Re: how not to wire your extension

I can't really comment on the fishy,I had cod and chips for dinner, my own cynical thoughts may be swayed by the taste
I think I should have taken this whole sorry saga with a pinch of salt

 

[dazza1981]

Re: how not to wire your extension

whats the problem? at least they put a couple of clips on the t and e when they installed it to the floor

 

[ExArmy]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Regarding insulation, to rock wool was only used in the roof above the Celotex - 2 layers of insulation were pout up there, all in line with architect design and building regs. The walls had similar sheets of cavity wall. The roof is solid - over engineered according to the building inspector, I have no issue with that.

is that not rockwool between the 2 walls ?
last time i was in the building trade we used to put cavity wall sheets (450mm x 1200mm)of hard foam insulation that had foil on both sides, xtra-therm, kingspan, celotex etc like so
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c...b%2Fwalls%2Finsulation%2Fsection4.htm;500;448

the purpose of the cavity wall is to stop damp getting in, and to allow the outer wall to breathe. at a guess the only reason that stuff you have in your walls has been chosen is cos it's cheaper than the cavity batts.

 

[davethsparky]

Re: how not to wire your extension

You can get rockwool cavity batts, but they are a lot more solid than that stuff and they have to be pinned back to the outside skin with big washer type things that go over the wall ties.

 

[jonwade]

Re: how not to wire your extension

ah, I had not realised at the time that was rock wall! - so that's a problem too.... moisture could soak through the bricks into the cavity insulation and into the room?

I am amazed that building control do not check all this stuff if it is so important.

 

[jonwade]

Re: how not to wire your extension

OK, found a photo I took of the product, it is Earthwool DriTherm37, which is described as:

Application: Earthwool DriTherm Cavity Slabs are for the thermal insulation of masonry cavity external walls and are installed to fully fill the cavity. They are approved for use in buildings up to 12m high in any exposure zone and for use in multi-storey applications up to 25m in height.

Read more: Earthwool DriTherm Cavity Slabs Earthwool DriTherm Cavity Slabs
Follow us: @KnaufUK on Twitter

So, does that mean it is OK?

 

[ExArmy]

Re: how not to wire your extension

yeah ok it looks like it's being used as it was intended to, so don;t panic. but i would certainly not be filling the cavity right up.

 

[davethsparky]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Building control should be looking at these things if they have been called in by the builder at the correct times in the job.

According to the data on that website yes that is the right stuff, just doesn't look like any cavity batt i've seen used before!

 

[saveloy]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Dritherm cavity batts are a perfectly acceptable form of insulation.
This type of insulation is known as full fill and is a standard building
system. There is no need for clips and it wont transmit damp from outside to inside.

 

[ExArmy]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Dritherm cavity batts are a perfectly acceptable form of insulation.
This type of insulation is known as full fill and is a standard building
system. There is no need for clips and it wont transmit damp from outside to inside.

debatable. they said the same about the "new" cavity fill beads" that are used for retrofit cavity insulation, but they cause problems still! i'd be interested to see how both of them perform back to back, and the cost difference (dritherm vs 50mm cavity batts)

 

[saveloy]

Re: how not to wire your extension

debatable. they said the same about the "new" cavity fill beads" that are used for retrofit cavity insulation, but they cause problems still! i'd be interested to see how both of them perform back to back, and the cost difference (dritherm vs 50mm cavity batts)

Well it is a system that has been used in millions of
houses and extensions all over the country for the past 30 odd
years. Problems with damp transmission in cavity walls will
almost always be down to poor construction methods
ie cavitys bridged with mortar or poor pointing rather than insulation transfering moisture.
Granted a partial fill system will almost guarantee no damp by virtue of a free air gap, but only if constructed properly.
If full fill caused that much of a problem then there would be millions of homes with problems amd it would have been abandoned by now.

 

[danzor]

At least they have a Gary Neville

 

[pepparz]

Re: how not to wire your extension

Think hes taken pictures for when he has to take the builder to court!