Fixed Appliances--Again-No doubt

[Adam W]

But again, if the code of practice changes every few years or so that's about £200 - £300 every so often which if you don't do a lot of PAT might equate to £50 per job just to keep 'up to date', which isn't competitive if you're up against someone who only does PAT.

 

[72-van]

I take your point Adam but if the ticket slappers went i am sure there would be a little more profit in the work .making it easier to pay out the fees for re-accreditation .

Its one of the reasons that at the moment even though i quite enjoy doing the work i am reluctant to take on new clients as they expect this work to be done for next to nothing then complain when i take several times longer to complete the site than the happy slappy brigades.
"what do you mean its failed its been okay for years works just fine .."

72-van

 

[SirKit Breaker]

But again, if the code of practice changes every few years or so that's about £200 - £300 every so often which if you don't do a lot of PAT might equate to £50 per job just to keep 'up to date', which isn't competitive if you're up against someone who only does PAT.

The current version of the COP has been in force since about 2006, and it still has 16th edition terminology in it. However, the current version of the Electricity at Work regulations have been in force since 1989, and the Health and safety at work act since 1974.

There is a load of other legislation, which is also listed in the COP, and it all falls under the remit of EAWR and HASAWA, all three clearly state what needs inspecting and testing, and why.

In a nutshell, ALL electrical equipment requires some sort of maintenance etc, i wont quote rules and regs, but the first few pages of the COP explain it all very clearly, even down to who has responsibility etc etc.

The COP costs about £35 not £200.

Cheers..........Howard

 

[Adam W]

I don't see how taking a test, filling in a form and writing out a cheque will stop sticker slappers. Whenever the old '5 week wonder vs time served JIB spark' issue comes up someone always points out that they know a time served JIB spark whose work is dog rough so the training and experience route isn't watertight; this is PAT testing, not rocket science - you can blag your way through it after a couple of days tuition. Whether or not someone choses to put what they've learned into practice in the real world or increase the profit margins because they've got mouths to feed is another matter.

 

[Adam W]

The current version of the COP has been in force since about 2006, and it still has 16th edition terminology in it. However, the current version of the Electricity at Work regulations have been in force since 1989, and the Health and safety at work act since 1974.

There is a load of other legislation, which is also listed in the COP, and it all falls under the remit of EAWR and HASAWA, all three clearly state what needs inspecting and testing, and why.

In a nutshell, ALL electrical equipment requires some sort of maintenance etc, i wont quote rules and regs, but the first few pages of the COP explain it all very clearly, even down to who has responsibility etc etc.

The COP costs about £35 not £200.

Cheers..........Howard

2007, reprinted 2008.
The CoP costs about £35, but the course costs about £200 - £300. You don't get a certificate for buying a book.

 

[72-van]

Far enough when theyre onsite they can happy slappy but they wouldnt get onsite if the trade test is fairly tough.?
surely proper accreditation given at the time of apprenticeships to trainee sparks and those who seek to enter the pat scene might reduce the dog rufff efforts .
this coupled with government the licensing of all sparks previously mentioned could do no harm.

Might i be right in saying that the whole scene boils down to some people fraudulently taking money for works that arent getting done by companys employing people that dont have the skill sets to achieve the proper outcome that the client is paying for.

something needs doing about the situation maybe bapat might accomplish this ?

72-van

 

[SirKit Breaker]

2007, reprinted 2008.
The CoP costs about £35, but the course costs about £200 - £300. You don't get a certificate for buying a book.

Fair comment about the book. I must have misread your post regarding the course. But once you have done the course, you have done the course, no need to redo it unless something changes drastically in the future. This is highly unlikely unless someone re invents the way electrical equipment is constructed, again highly unlikely.

There will be a new COP out sooner rather than later, but this will just be a change of terminology to realign with the same in the wiring regs. The changes will be minor, and the principles and practices wont change. C&G have no intentions to change the course, although they did change it in January, but in title only, this was to enable them to align the course with the QCF system. The exam went from 30 to 50 questions. So now if you do the course, and pass either the practical or the online test, then you dont need to redo the lot again if you fail one of the 2 modules.

Cheers.........Howard

 

[72-van]

I wonder if the syllabus includes safe isolation which is clearly required if the cop is to be complied with .
if not why not ?
if the cg2377 is to be considered the competency to comply with cop then the 2377 should include safe isolation of fixed appliances.

72-van

 

[sparkie_Al]

Having just completed this additional course, (on top of all the other electrical stuff) I can say that safe isolation is or was not mentioned once. The fact that there is also ambiguity within the testers, eg PASS/FAIL or a tester that gives out test results...something that to me is a must, is also a worry. If the appliance does go on to kill its operator then at least you have documented evidence that the machine was ok, at the time of testing...rather like the car with an MOT, then the brakes fail 3 days later. The course and exam is supposed to be aimed at non electrical persons, but is also EAL level 3, and within the 50 questions (on the day I sat it) there were more than just one or two electrical based questions.

 

[72-van]

cheers for that Al

no mention of safe isolation surely then as i have said those persons without an electrical background but with this ticket cant comply with the cop.

those who have will have the tools and experience to do the fixed kit
those with no knoledge of these skills are putting themselves and others in a dangerous position if they attempt to do a fixed appliance .

I also agree with your comments re the testing appliance itself .
these pass fail testers cannot possibly be a good idea how for instance do you negate the value of the applaince leads and the like.

i think the actaul value should be presented in the documentation to the client.

72-van

 

[Adam W]

To test an appliance with a plugtop you have to unplug it, which BS7671 recognises as a method of isolation. As regards these pass/fail testers I can't help thinking they're a step in a dangerous direction - as it is there are 'non-electricians' doing PAT who as mentioned may not be competent to safely isolate and disconnect an appliance wired into a FCU and may rely too heavily on what the tester says and nothing else, the result being perfectly good appliances may fail because the tester can't find a point of earth continuity to test to, or worse still may pass an appliance with an obvious visual (or other sense) fault because the machine has deemed it a pass.

As I've said PAT isn't rocket science, but that may be speaking as an electrician; for example before I was even allowed to start training I had to do a colour perception test, while I don't remember anything like that when signing up to the 2377.
Basic stuff, but if you're totally colour blind how can you be sure a plug has been wired correctly?

Maybe the 'answer' is some kind of compulsory bridging course for non-electricians to cover some of the basics before the 2377 is taken. The college I trained at wouldn't let you take the 2382 without a full electrical qualification, although there are training centres who would probably just hand over the certificate if you've got enough money.

 

[oldtimer]

There will be a new COP out sooner rather than later, but this will just be a change of terminology to realign with the same in the wiring regs. The changes will be minor, and the principles and practices wont change. C&G have no intentions to change the course, although they did change it in January, but in title only, this was to enable them to align the course with the QCF system. The exam went from 30 to 50 questions. So now if you do the course, and pass either the practical or the online test, then you dont need to redo the lot again if you fail one of the 2 modules.

Cheers.........Howard

Ahhhhhh great thats means I get to go out and spend hard cash on the new COP but I am still saving my pennies as I broke the bank buying BGB Onsite guide, EICR documentation better stop there as I have said all this before and just when I get them all neatly on the shelves then we might get a BBB (big blue book) and...............................

 

[Top Cat]

I think to stop all confusion between fixed and non fixed appliance testing we need to re name the procedure. My suggestion is:-

Frequent Allencompassing Rigorous Testing

F.A.R.T

We could then get a C& G in FARTING!

 

[Litttle Shonet]

as it is there are 'non-electricians' doing PAT who as mentioned may not be competent to safely isolate and disconnect an appliance wired into a FCU

I think this is where a lot of the confusion comes from. You don't have to be a quallified electrician to carry out PAT testing ,therefore you 'don't ' do fixed appliances.

 

[Adam W]

I think this is where a lot of the confusion comes from. You don't have to be a quallified electrician to carry out PAT testing ,therefore you 'don't ' do fixed appliances.

Who does then?
You'd need to get a qualified electrician in to test them, or at least disconnect the appliance so you can test it and then reconnect it again afterwards, so why not just get a qualified electrician in to do the lot?

 

[Litttle Shonet]

Who does then?
You'd need to get a qualified electrician in to test them, or at least disconnect the appliance so you can test it and then reconnect it again afterwards, so why not just get a qualified electrician in to do the lot?

Exactly, thats what I was trying to say. I think the body who thought up the PAT testing scheme must have done it down the pub on the back of a smoke packet. It needs sorting out!!!
How can someone who has no electrical background even be considered for the 2377, let alone test appliances

 

[Adam W]

I sometimes get the impression the main reason for PAT testing is to create jobs.

 

[Silly Sausage]

I sometimes get the impression the main reason for PAT testing is to create jobs.

Me too.
I must admit, I completely agree with the article in this month's Wiring Matters on PAT.

 

[Litttle Shonet]

hello - Urgently need a PAT Testers help Please

Just started reading this thread. I rest my case

 

[oldtimer]

As I have said PAT testing great we can have a good industry hiving it off electricians and making it semi skilled and yes it works then somebody pipes up and says well a PIR covers the fixed wiring and a PAT test covers the portable stuff but what covers the fixed appliances so PAT no goes to ISI&TEE and o boy what a can of worms this is. Plus when I was on the course this is what the lecturer was trying to say without making it too obvious this is what is keeping them awake at night because you cannot say just ignore it if it is wired to a FCU