is it up to the customer what protective device is in his installation?

[juice]

I've been asked to install a shower unit in a clients house and he only wants me to change the shower itself. The consumer unit has BS3036 rewireable fuses and no RCD protecting any of the circuits, including the existing shower circuit. He has already bought the new shower and only wants me to change the shower unit so costs can be kept to a minimum.

Obviously as the shower is in a bathroom it must be backed by an RCD. Can the customer choose to not have an RCD put in and I put this down as a departure from BS7671?

Personally I want to put an RCD in as this is clearly the safest option to protect against electric shock in the bathroom, but who is it that decides the level of protection to be put in on an electrical installation? Cost is always an issue and can I insist that an RCD must go in or the work can't be done or is this at the customer's discretion?

 

[Marvo]

If you've explained what the RCD does and it's importance and the customer still wants to omit it because of the cost I'd drop the customer and the job and just walk away.

I'm not from the UK so I don't know if you're allowed a 'departure' from the regs but unless the customer has a relevant electrical qualification they have no say in the circuit design process as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Adam W]

If something were to go wrong the customer could argue that of course he wanted to save money and he didn't realise the implications of not having an RCD on the shower because he's not an electrician.
You can't use that defence.

In the best case scenario do you really want the customer showing your non-compliant work to their family and friends? Do you feel confident that someone who is prepared to cut corners on their family's safety to save a couple of quid is going to pay up on time without quibbling?

 

[HandySparks]

Personally I want to put an RCD in as this is clearly the safest option to protect against electric shock in the bathroom, but who is it that decides the level of protection to be put in on an electrical installation?

The 'designer' of the proposed work, who'll be putting his name on the cert. In this case, you.

Cost is always an issue and can I insist that an RCD must go in or the work can't be done...

You can insist or walk away.

...or is this at the customer's discretion?

Only if he can find an electrician willing to do the job as the customer wants.

 

[Phil Thompson]

I'd tell the customer they need to have an RCD installed. Otherwise you are unable to do the job, as you follow the regulations to protect both you and them.

 

[Risteard]

And RE: the "Departures" box question, the simple answer is that it is prohibited to have departures which do not afford at least the same degree of safety as compliance with the Regulations. They are really intended for new innovations which could not have been included in the Regulations as they came afterwards.

So you absolutely cannot list that as a departure.

 

[bigspark17]

I think you should look at the manufacturers instructions here, if they state rcd is required then that will shut him up.'

 

[Pete999]

It's your neck on the line, you are the professional if your customer wont agree to having the work done to the correct regulations, walk away, politely tell them why you are refusing to do the work.

 

[Octopus]

If you start doing work like this, you will end up doing more of it ...... then when something goes wrong, it will be your neck!

 

[Andy78]

Another potential issue I would be looking at here despite the requirement of RCD by regulations and manufacturer is the circuit itself.
The combination of the existing cable and a BS3036 device may not be suitable for a couple of reasons. In my experience customers buying their own shower do not buy the same kW rating of shower 80% of the time, and the factor of Cf to be applied to CCC values in the current regulations for a circuit protected by a BS3036 are usually prohibitive for a shower circuit.
I.e. adding a RCD alone may not be sufficient for the circuit to be suitable for continued use.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

From what has been said in the OP, this is a replacement, not a new installation.
As such, there is no requirement to provide RCD protection.

 

[telectrix]

From what has been said in the OP, this is a replacement, not a new installation.
As such, there is no requirement to provide RCD protection.

only if :

1. the shower is the same rating as the old one.

2. manufacturers instructions do not specify a RCD to be fitted.

 

[tomspark93]

Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable doing the job without installing an rcd. I'd include it in my quote and explain the benefits and implications. It's hard to turn down work sometimes but it's your neck on the line if something went wrong.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

only if :

1. the shower is the same rating as the old one.

2. manufacturers instructions do not specify a RCD to be fitted.

The rating of equipment has no bearing on the requirement to provide RCD protection for circuits which supply equipment in a location containg a bath or shower, nor for circuits which pass through the zones of such a location.

Yes electrical equipment should be installed in accordance with manufacturer's instructions.

 

[dave274]

But you can only omit the rcd if it's a like for like swap. If it's not the same rating then it's not like for like.

 

[juice]

Thank you for all your posts. Electricians forum is truly a brilliant resource for electricians facing the challenges of preventing harm coming to persons, livestock or property. Customers will most likely never appreciate the effort we go to ensure no harm comes to them or their family.

I've had chance to do a few more calculations and because the shower circuit is wired in 6mm2 and is protected by a BS 3036 fuse I cannot do a like for like swap. Due to the BS3036 fuse I must apply the Cf correction factor and this means the circuit must now be wired in 10mm2 cable if I want to keep the BS3036 fuse as the protective device.

To continue using the 6mm2 cable and prevent the need for a rewire of the shower circuit the other option is to change the protective device, which to me seems like the better option as it allows me to introduce an RCD. Now all I need to do is explain all this to the customer and check for any thermal insulation that could be present, which could also force a rewire to 10mm2.

Then I will just have to mitigate the costs as best I can for them. Unfortunately just like a car electricity has to be safe to use.

 

[dave274]

If you rewire it in 10mm then it will still need an rcd as it will be a new circuit entering a bathroom.

 

[M-Ty]

Is the Cf for the rewireable fuse necessary?
A shower can reasonably be expected to be a fixed load and therefore the circuit does not require close overload protection.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

But you can only omit the rcd if it's a like for like swap. If it's not the same rating then it's not like for like.

Not aware that BS7671 makes any reference to 'like for like'.
I believe there may be some reference to the term in Part P.

 

[Midwest]

OP, you don't seem to be convinced by your peers here, i.e. to tell your customer you are not installing new shower without the installation of RCD?
There's minor discussion about other issues, but the recurring advice to you, is only install with RCD. If that's not to your customers pocket, let them find someone else.

 

[davesparks]

But you can only omit the rcd if it's a like for like swap. If it's not the same rating then it's not like for like.

Which regulation will you be using to support that statement?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[dave274]

Part p of the building regulations.

 

[Aurai]

Gents

In relation to an addition or alteration to existing electrical installations.

this thread goes to the heart of the tension between professionals and the domestic consumer which get faced everyday. Part P does, however, still direct us to designing and installing in accordance with BS7671.

Then we we get the bit which says the building should be no more unsatisfactory .... then when the building work was started.

Then we are directed to do any new work according to BS 7671 and we must check the existing installation a) rating and condition for new loads (does not say anything about like for like loads) b) Adequate protective measures are used c) Earthing etc satisfactory.

Then we are given the list of notifiable work, shower room for instance. This bit is important to this discussion, I suggest, as minor additions and alterations are notifiable in this case.

A simple swap, like for like model and rating of shower unit, would ordinarily pass the no more unsatisfactory test, as long as b and c above being satisfied.

Which leads us to BS 7671, if you agree with me so far. Where I suggest if we touch this particular circuit we adopt wiring regs and add an RCD. 701.411.3.6. Uses the word shall, not maybe, might, is optional etc.

cheers

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As far as I am aware, there is no requirement to notify when replacing equipment, irrespective of whether the equipment is in a special location.

As for the OP's query, it is up to the person conducting the work to comply with the requirements of BS7671.
In this particular instance there is no requirement to provide RCD protection, as the work is replacing equipment.

 

[Simlec]

As far as I am aware, there is no requirement to notify when replacing equipment, irrespective of whether the equipment is in a special location.

As for the OP's query, it is up to the person conducting the work to comply with the requirements of BS7671.
In this particular instance there is no requirement to provide RCD protection, as the work is replacing equipment.

But in this instance the equipment been installed comes with a manual and it will say in there that an RCD MUST be installed. No getting around it.

 

[Midwest]

And consider the manufacturers installation instructions, which will advise RCD installation. We can always live in past, and install equipment connected to bare wires circa Edwardian times. But safety moves on.

 

[Risteard]

a manual and it will say in there that an RCD MUST be installed.

And rightly so!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It is quite possible that the manufacturer's instructions do specify RCD protection be provided.
Unfortunately, without knowledge of either the manufacturer or their instructions, I am unwilling to offer an opinion as to what such instructions do or do not require.