POLL - Neutrals at switches

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Discuss POLL - Neutrals at switches in the Australia area at ElectriciansForums.net

How different is it to wiring neutrals at the switch. I am in my apprenticeship and I have been taught the Switched Live method (using the neutral) as switching but my boss doesnt do this and just uses the brown and links them across different gangs. All the neutrals go into a connector block.

Can anyone show me any wiring diagrams where the neutrals are wired at the switch?
 
I've always wired neutrals at the switches on every shower and cooker I've installed.

Immersions too.

Heating sytem FCUs.

Main switches.

.......................
 
Ive got an extension to wire for Mrs.Miggins.........


Should I 3-plate the 5 up-lighters she wants or should I take the mains to the 2 gang switch?

Thanks in advance.







Smirk.
 
hi all

another reason i take the live & neutral to the switch, when doing 2 way landing light i take a 3core from bottom of stairs to landing switch using brown and black as strappers an grey for neutral and then take twin from landing switch to light...... wait for it...... i'm probably in for it now!!!! bad practice and all that!

regards
gary
 
Yip neutrals at switches rule. Easier too alter lighting in ceilings . one wire from one direction to move not three from different directions. No joint boxes in ceilings that you can`t access because of flooring and such like.
 
Poll ends 11:46 tomorrow morning!!

Current standings:
Acceptable - 98 - 88.29%
Unacceptable - 7 - 6.31%
Undecided - 6 - 5.41%
 
well I for one am glad it`s a landslide victory if you like to call it that. after the last thread your coalition would have been worse than Vince Cable and George Osborne :)
 
_42835449_swingometer_bbc_203.jpg

"as you can clearly see the neutral blues are in a massive lead and don't have to form a coalition with the cpc's to gain a majority win".
 
I never saw them done any other way with my old firm. I thought it was fine except on numerous occasions I saw 35mm backboxes having the following cables:

Feed in
Feed out
Lights switch line
Shaver
Fan isolater


"This light switch won't screw back, I guess you're going to tell me I'm doing something wrong now."

As a wiring method though, it seems more logical and much easier than three plate.
 
If im on a rewire and the customer wants 10 downlighters in the kitchen i prefer to take the neutrals to the switch using a deeper box. If its standard pendants I would just take the loops straight to the pendant.
 
Its a big fat GOOD from me...do it all the time for spot or wall lights!!!!. almost as good as a 4mm2, 32amp radial circuit instead of a ring final............now there is another can of worms popped open..
 
How much more expensive is it in reality to use 4mm cable for a radial, if you then subtract the extra time spent testing ring final circuits?
 
Remember a job where the client wanted some Futronix dimmers fitting, most needed their own format backbox and neutrals. managed easy on top floor by poking at the cable capping and sliding a neutral down but i remember one room i had to chase about 5M just for a little cable... and my chisel was blunt, what a mess.
 
I think it the best way due to not having to work on ladders when 2nd fixing so is a little quicker and easier, although the one time i didnt like it when i had a 4 way switch which had 3 2way circuits loop in loop out (3 x 1.5mm 3core, 6 x 1.5mm T&E) although it wasnt bad just took a while to dress correctly it was more the earths that caused the problem lol
 
I see a lot of old heads 'we don't like change' seem to be taking exception to this??

There are a lot of arguments for why the link is at switches, but (only a quick scan), i dont see any arguments 'FOR' loop-in, other than, ...'i've always done it like that'...'it's the way i was shown'.

(this is where one of the old timers moan at me for not agreeing with their dinosaur methods ;-)
 
Nothing wrong with having a neutral conductor at the switch, ....When It's Required!! Looping through switches for the sake of it, is a nonsense, and basically favoured by by those that have been in the game 5 minutes, for all the wrong reasons!!

You won't find this looping arrangement on ANY ''specified'' project, which should be telling telling them something, ...or maybe not, as most wouldn't be able to even get on a prestige project to know!!!

Probably the same with their love of radials over RFC, because they can't fault find, when they c**k it up!!

I'll stick to being a dinosaur if that's what it means, at least i know what i'm doing, which going by some of the posts these same people make here, ...Don't!!!
 
Engineer54 said:
Nothing wrong with having a neutral conductor at the switch, ....When It's Required!! Looping through switches for the sake of it, is a nonsense, and basically favoured by by those that have been in the game 5 minutes, for all the wrong reasons!!

You won't find this looping arrangement on ANY ''specified'' project, which should be telling telling them something, ...or maybe not, as most wouldn't be able to even get on a prestige project to know!!!

Probably the same with their love of radials over RFC, because they can't fault find, when they c**k it up!!

I'll stick to being a dinosaur if that's what it means, at least i know what i'm doing, which going by some of the posts these same people make here, ...Don't!!!
Click to expand...

Last 2 sites i was on, barratt and taylor wimpey both specified neutrals at the switches. This was for blocks of 2,3 +4 town houses in the center of edinburgh. I'm not arguing against loop-in system, but STILL no one has given a valid reason FOR it.

And to insult people that 'have been in the game 5 mins' shows the kind of attitude that will struggle to keep up to modern methods and techniques. Although you may disagree with this method, it is becoming widely used as the norm aswel as the way its been taught in colleges during apprenticeships.

ps i don't use the 4mm radial method for skts etc, but how does that make it anymore difficult to fault find??
 
Smudge said:
Last 2 sites i was on, barrett and taylor wimpey both specified neutrals at the switches. This was for blocks of 2,3 +4 town houses in the center of edinburgh. I'm not arguing against loop-in system, but STILL no one has given a valid reason FOR it.

And to insult people that 'have been in the game 5 mins' shows the kind of attitude that will struggle to keep up to modern methods and techniques. Although you may disagree with this method, it is becoming widely used as the norm as well as the way its been taught in colleges during apprenticeships.

ps i don't use the 4mm radial method for skits etc, but how does that make it anymore difficult to fault find??
Click to expand...

I'm talking proper ''Specified projects'' not whack it in as cheap as possible housing developments!!

I need to work to the highest international standards, all on prestige projects, so i can't and don't live in the past, as you have others believe. Your so-called modern methods, don't mean they are good methods, ...in fact when anyone preempt statements with ''modern'' over established, they are normally less rather than better!!

Well there is not much substance in quoting being taught at collage, as everyone and his dog knows that the standard of training within our industry these days isn't anywhere near what it needs to be, and that goes for a good number of the lecturers at these collages and training centres too....

My meaning on FRC/Raidials, is that there are far too many so-called new electricians out there, that are incapable of fault finding, especially FRC's... I make no apologies for my attitude as you put it, as the overall standard of electricians is falling away fast. Certainly from what i and many others here would consider as qualified electricians...
 
Bean counters!
Someone must have worked out that it takes a few metres less cable to use the rose loop in method.
Think of all the houses that went up in the '60s and '70s, a lot of council housing - and pretty much every domestic lighting point was a pendant at the time (or a 3-plate batten for the bathroom).
On that scale, you're looking at hundreds of thousands of pounds

Just like the radial and ring argument, you use your engineering knowledge and judgement to choose the most appropriate method for the particular job.

Simon.
 
ok ok, my humble apologies, i'll scrap everything i've learned in the last 15years by qualified electrical and engineering lecturers because you disagree. 15 years is merely a speck in the grand scheme of a career, but surely even from the heights of your high horse you might be able to see the wood for the trees. And i will also apologise for working in the 'non-prestige', lower end housing developments with the other 99.9% of sparks, the shame of us. Some day i hope to be able to look down on the rest with such contempt as you are doing.

Now if you pick up your toys, dust off the dummy, answer the original point i put forward instead of insulting the modern apprenticeship and anyone that works on a building site...can you please give the advatages of a loop in system?? and the disadvantages of it at the switches?
 
Smudge said:
ok ok, my humble apologies, i'll scrap everything i've learned in the last 15years by qualified electrical and engineering lecturers because you disagree. 15 years is merely a speck in the grand scheme of a career, but surely even from the heights of your high horse you might be able to see the wood for the trees. And i will also apologise for working in the 'non-prestige', lower end housing developments with the other 99.9% of sparks, the shame of us. Some day i hope to be able to look down on the rest with such contempt as you are doing.

Now if you pick up your toys, dust off the dummy, answer the original point i put forward instead of insulting the modern apprenticeship and anyone that works on a building site...can you please give the advantages of a loop in system?? and the disadvantages of it at the switches?
Click to expand...

Really!! i didn't know the down turn had been going on for 15 years or more!!! Well you learn something new every day!! lolI

I work on building sites, ....Big building sites and have done for the best part of my working life.

Instead of trying to be a Smart Arse, You tell me why you would want a neutral being distributed in switch boxes that just sits there in the vast majority of cases, doing Nothing. And perhaps tell us why you consider a switch box that can end up jammed full of cables, because your looping through switch boxes is BETTER?? (I think someone posted a photo of just such a situation on this thread somewhere) Seen it far too many times, where it becomes an art form just to try and get the front switch plates into even deep boxes... As i've said, if you NEED a neutral at a switch position fine, i have no problem with that at all, but looping for the sake of it. ...No way!!!

Why is it you always mention downlights when hailing the neutral switch loop system?? Only one of the downlight positions will have a max of 4 T&E's that need to be connected, the rest will just be looping between the downlights when using the ceiling 3 plate system. So apart from that one position, it's exactly the same wiring, as looping through the switches.

Basically, ...I don't give a monkey's how you wire an installation, you do whatever you want to do, but your not in a month of sunday's going to convince me a switch loop lighting system is BETTER than the recognised and established wiring systems, and that's the end of, as far as i'm concerned...
 
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you picked up your toys, were doing so well, then threw them right back out the pram.

if you look at my original point, which had 'MY' reasons for neutral switch position (not having to unneccessarily fish ceilings, wall lights, and as someone else has also pointed out, a lot of the newer digital etc), and then asks for 'PRO' arguments for loop in at fittings. And then a tongue in cheek comment about dinosaurs. This i believe is where you have come charging in full guns blazing insulting any job you deem beneath you. My apologies if you took my original statement literally instead of the joking manner it was meant, but i have worked hard to get where i am and won't be looked down on by the 'old heads'.
 
Engineer54 said:
Really!! i didn't know the down turn had been going on for 15 years or more!!! Well you learn something new every day!! lolI

I work on building sites, ....Big building sites and have done for the best part of my working life.

Instead of trying to be a Smart Arse, You tell me why you would want a neutral being distributed in switch boxes that just sits there in the vast majority of cases, doing Nothing. And perhaps tell us why you consider a switch box that can end up jammed full of cables, because your looping through switch boxes is BETTER?? (I think someone posted a photo of just such a situation on this thread somewhere) Seen it far too many times, where it becomes an art form just to try and get the front switch plates into even deep boxes... As i've said, if you NEED a neutral at a switch position fine, i have no problem with that at all, but looping for the sake of it. ...No way!!!

Why is it you always mention downlights when hailing the neutral switch loop system?? Only one of the downlight positions will have a max of 4 T&E's that need to be connected, the rest will just be looping between the downlights when using the ceiling 3 plate system. So apart from that one position, it's exactly the same wiring, as looping through the switches.

Basically, ...I don't give a monkey's how you wire an installation, you do whatever you want to do, but your not in a month of sunday's going to convince me a switch loop lighting system is BETTER than the recognised and established wiring systems, and that's the end of, as far as i'm concerned...
Click to expand...


Think you'll find the same applies to a looped permanant live at a luminaire,why would you want it.??...sits there doing nothing......If you NEED a permant live at the luminaire then fine,I have no problem with that at all,but looping for the sake of it....No way!!!

(just being a smart arse..)..:13:
 
what about all the lights that onlly have enough space for 1 or 2 at the most loop at ceiling is no good.

After all the comments i might just go back to how my old boss said he used to do things and have one cable going up to loft then all live going from that to wall above switch and then a jb, 1 wire to switch then 1 to light. Problem sloved Hahahahahah
Cant belive it was standard practise back in the day
 
wirepuller said:
Think you'll find the same applies to a looped permanant live at a luminaire,why would you want it.??...sits there doing nothing......If you NEED a permant live at the luminaire then fine,I have no problem with that at all,but looping for the sake of it....No way!!!

(just being a smart arse..)..:13:
Click to expand...

Damn you just ****ed on my campfire, this is exactly what I was about to point out
 
No one way is better than the other in general. I use whichever is quicker but generally favour the neutral at the switch. As has been quite rightly stated above you dont NEED a perm live at the light fitting any more than you NEED a neutral at the switch, talking about what you need is the most BS argument I've ever heard.
Obviously if you plan to have all your wires at the switch you whack yer box in nice and deep and space isn't a problem.

It also makes it far easier to add another seperatly switched light in the future and saves somone having to hunt around for that elusive JB in the cieling.

I also find it quicker to do my wiring at chest height than in a loft or above my head.

Of course for a one pendant per room rewire with solid walls you'd loop the light cos its quicker.

This argument of "It's the better way cos its how we did it in the 70's and I'm set in my ways, old fashioned and completely out of touch" is getting rather tiresome.
 
Look you either have a joint box under the floor or in the attic or loop in loop out at each light or wire via the switches but one point you are all missing is there is nothing wrong with all 3 ways of doing it plus the biggest and obvious thing is that I have seen lighting circuits where the conduit is tubed from under the floor up to the switch then up to the light plus switches can be connected back to back so horses for courses
 
Nothing wrong with a good debate, but sometimes a subject gets the 4rse kicked right out of it on here.

Personally as long as I can justify the design/layout of a circuit I'll wire it however I think is appropriate (within the regs). Loop in, switched feed, loop into a spider of downlights, loop into each downlight whatever suits the job really.

I was told (quoted down to) by a guy last week that "the NIC say it shouldn't be done in a ring. They want it all to be radials now." My reply was along the lines of "Unless they're going to turn up and pull the cable in the next half hour the NIC can go ........" etc. I hate all these petty little add-ons that get handed out as 'rules'. What happened to tradesmen making a judgement as to what is or isn't appropriate on that job in that location?

I think it was Douglas Bader that said "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."
 
I was told by eca helpline that it was acceptable about two years ago but but my reason for doubt is i seem to remember an niceic document way back when i was an apprentice about 2002 saying it was unnacceptable for a neutral condutor to be cut and jointed at the switch position so I am going to say no.
 
bigshow84 said:
I was told by eca helpline that it was acceptable about two years ago but but my reason for doubt is i seem to remember an niceic document way back when i was an apprentice about 2002 saying it was unnacceptable for a neutral condutor to be cut and jointed at the switch position so I am going to say no.
Click to expand...

So they wont have a neutral at a switch but they are happy to have a live at a light ???? I now know we are a joke when any schemie can throw their 2 bobs worth in the ring not because they are right but because they have an audience and feel they need to say something to impress so for all you guys that get caught in a cosy chat with these clowns just say can you show me where in the regs you cannot do that or so can you put this in writing to me so I can keep it for reference purposes this nonsense is getting out of hand with these guys and I have no doubt they are lurking on this site but thats all they are doing cos they are not giving any input and why well dont be silly they aint going to get caught making a decission in writing
 
Imago
Bang on mate. As it happens I've been trying to find that bloody phrase on the net for weeks so I could quote it on this forum. It completely sums up my outlook on life.
Some people are born to be sheep. They don't generally get very far in life.
 
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Some of the answers on here are hilarious, whoever made this myth of neutrals not been allowed at a switch deserves a medal


Why oh why is there any valid reason why not?, 20a dp switch for an immersion has a neutral at it, a switched fused spur to control a heater has a neutral at it etc......

The light switch should be no exception, its a point within the electrical installation and not uncommon or wrong to have a neutral there, it certainly makes lighter work of 2nd fixing

Complete stupidity if you think its "wrong" or " against the regs", i reckon some people should. Go upgrade their electrical qualifications or maybes get some
 
been doing it both ways for last 25 yrs ! more room in a sw box than a drop if you know how to form your wires correctly. so many times i see wires either cut to long or to short!

"can't have N's at switches" ye right thats why some manufactures now make plate sw's with N terminal

majority rule lets call it a day lol
 
wirepuller said:
Think you'll find the same applies to a looped permanant live at a luminaire,why would you want it.??...sits there doing nothing......If you NEED a permant live at the luminaire then fine,I have no problem with that at all,but looping for the sake of it....No way!!!

(just being a smart arse..)..:13:
Click to expand...

Well you try!! lol!!

And i always thought the ceiling permanent 3 plate live and neutral was distributing the live and neutral conductors around the circuit, ...silly me!!!


By the way, i have nothing against the crab/spider wiring method, either.
Lighting circuit conduit runs from floors, do pass a neutral through the switch box, no problem with that either, so long as it's unbroken with no unnecessary joints. Yes they do now make switch plates for a neutral connection, and very useful when a neutral IS required at that switch point...

Anyway this thread had died a death a long time ago, and should again!!
But it won't, as those that need to convince themselves will still be doing just that!!! lol!! I'm out of it...
 
engineer54 said:
well you try!! Lol!!

And i always thought the ceiling permanent 3 plate live and neutral was distributing the live and neutral conductors around the circuit, ...silly me!!!


By the way, i have nothing against the crab/spider wiring method, either.
Lighting circuit conduit runs from floors, do pass a neutral through the switch box, no problem with that either, so long as it's unbroken with no unnecessary joints. Yes they do now make switch plates for a neutral connection, and very useful when a neutral is required at that switch point...

Anyway this thread had died a death a long time ago, and should again!!
But it won't, as those that need to convince themselves will still be doing just that!!! lol!! I'm out of it...
Click to expand...

t f f t.........
 
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