Discuss problems with lights dimming when loads applied (domestic)` in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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just had western power out as im fed up of my lights flickering occasionally at night and dimming slightly during the day when we turn say a kettle on.

they put a meter on the supply fuse I went in turned on a 2.2kw kettle and the fan oven result: 242-244v dropping to 232v. this seems a bit high to me. whats the limit?
 
I'm an idiot..... Sorry OP. Says on second line of the PDF.... Long day at work....
 
had similar scenario a few years back. customer complaining of flickering lights during high demand periods. voltmeter across supply read 207V. SP came out and said.. " nothing we can do about it except install a 3 phase supply. you dig the 400 yard trench and we'll do it for £15,000."
 
It might be that you're far away from the DNO transformer or maybe the demand in the area is at its maximum for the DNO infrastructure. If it was a low voltage issue they could probably change the tap on the transformer to compensate but with voltage sags due to load it wouldn't help. Have you tested the DNO supply? Can you test Zn and ZL (including transformer impedance) and test the PSC (L-N)?
 
when western power visited they could see the problem, but couldn't pin point where it was. they said id probably have to wait for it to blow then they could find it. apparently the feed to our road is 0.6? and he seemed concerned that this was to small, as there is a garage running off it also. plus it seems there is some joints under the road where he suspects the overheads were buried.

they also noted my incoming cable has been buried in the wall that was added when the previous owner extended the house, he said it was naughty and hoped the concrete hadn't eaten through the cable. having said that the extension has been up 10 years.

anyway they are going to fit a monitor to my house and see what happens.
 
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just had western power out as im fed up of my lights flickering occasionally at night and dimming slightly during the day when we turn say a kettle on.

they put a meter on the supply fuse I went in turned on a 2.2kw kettle and the fan oven result: 242-244v dropping to 232v. this seems a bit high to me. whats the limit?

By Marconi I note WP are investigating for you and may discover a fault which they can correct. When you say your lights flicker or dim could you tell us whether they are incandescent or fluorescent types? One can observe flickering fluorescent lamps when they are approaching the end of their life especially when the mains voltage reduces. If you observe flickering incandescent lamps then something else is happening electrically. Dimming incandescent lamps is due to the drop in mains voltage.

Can you describe a little more what other loads you have in your home, particularly those with electric motors in them? And are there any non domestic premises connected to your street's supply? I am wondering if the flickering is caused by induction motors acting as generators as they slow down as a result of the mains voltage decreasing. The flickering being symptomatic of the motor emf being briefly out of synchronism with the mains emf as it runs down in rotational speed and the slip between stator and armature reverses. Positive slip - motoring. Negative slip - generating. Still pondering on it though without more information from you.

If you do not have any success with discovering the cause you might consider installing a voltage regulator to supply your lighting circuits. I have in my home. Because the voltage regulator would supply your lighting with a reduced voltage - 220Volts in my case though often it can be adjusted - to enjoy the same level of lighting lux you would need to change your lamps for higher wattage/lux ones. I too was irritated by dimming of lamps and subsequent brightening up as loads switched on and off or settled but this was overcome by the Voltage Regulator.

Just a a thought on a way ahead.
 
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I am wondering if the flickering is caused by induction motors acting as generators as they slow down as a result of the mains voltage decreasing. The flickering being symptomatic of the motor emf being briefly out of synchronism with the mains emf as it runs down in rotational speed and the slip between stator and armature reverses. Positive slip motoring. Negative slip - generating

This doesn't make sense. When the voltage reduces, the slip increases due to the lower magnetising current. The motor will decelerate fractionally due to the load torque absorbing angular momentum until the slip is sufficient to reach equilibrium. To generate even briefly, the slip would have to decrease and pass through zero, i.e. the load overruns the stator flux vector. This would only happen if the frequency reduces, not the voltage.

More likely to be a loose connection, IMHO. Or a long bit of thin string that no-one has complained about before. 0.6 sq. ins is not thin by any means, I think the DNO man must have been referring to 0.06 - 19/.064 or about 39 mm².
 
Yep have to agree here too in that it confused me as well, the volts drop (mains transient) caused by a large motor or any high inductive load is usually down to the inrush current on energisation before the magnetic field has built up sufficiently to counter the surge... this equates to a volts drop over the local network which may only last for mili-seconds but can be seen as a flicker on any incandescent lamps, inductive lighting usually takes an inductive load with the longer time curve to show such a flicker like a large motor with a high inertia load where start-up times can be longer. Either way customers are limited to the amount of time any of their loads creates this effect onto local networks and can result in hefty fines or even disconnection to repeat offenders. This is why when applying for a KVA allowance upgrade or new supply you have to provide specifics on things like large motors and the number of times per hour they start or if they have options like DOL inching etc.
 
Dear Darkwood and Mr Nunes,

Thank you for your engagement on this. At dawn this morning my thinking was not complete so I only wrote down the gist of it. I have thought more on it today and will craft a better ditty tomorrow.

I agree that it is probably something simple which the DNO ought to be able to find and correct. I am thinking about the question 'what if they don't'?

I am considering the effect of stored energy electro-mechanical systems which if connected to the network near the OP's home might cause flickering effects when the voltage dips.

:) I cannot write more now because my wife is giving me grief!
 
By MARCONI

This think-piece addresses a possible cause for flickering incandescent lights when the supply has relatively high impedance, perhaps due to length, high resistance connections or resistivity of conductors – the situation existing I suspect for the OP’s home.

I am considering what would be the effect on any running loaded induction motors either in the OP’s home or without, not necessarily on the same phase, when there is a step change in energising voltage caused by a load being turned on or off – a surge/swell or a sag/dip. I know there are many other variations of the mains voltage which could be considered but this think-piece only covers steps up or down.

What puzzled me is how a step change in voltage/current downwards led to a brief oscillatory variation in mains voltage which caused the incandescent light to flicker at low frequency. Obviously, the lights change their intensity in such a way to flicker because the current through them changes because in turn the mains voltage changes in a decaying oscillatory way flowing the step change in load – the kettle being turned on for instance. The mains voltage changes because of increased or decreased current flowing through the supply conductors and some of the household wiring.

I reckon I can safely assume Darkwood and Mr Lunes are schooled in much of the theory of how a synchronous or asynchronous induction motor(IM) works. So, I can use terms they are familiar with.

In my first post I wondered where there are sub-mains frequency emfs which might cause decaying oscillatory low frequency currents to be impressed upon the wiring network (within and without the house) stimulated by a step-change in mains voltage following a step change in load. They exist in the spinning rotor of an induction motor. The frequency of the current in the rotor coils is slip x 50Hz. When an induction is run up and slip is small the rotor currents are of the order of low Hertz.

Let’s talk a bit more on slip. In a synchronous induction motor, which requires external excitation of the rotor and a starting only pony motor, the stator field and the rotor field rotate in step at the synchronous frequency – determined by the frequency of the ac and the number of poles, etcetera. There is no relative velocity between them. However there is a relative angular displacement between the stator’s rotating flux vector and the rotor flux vector – not much – but enough to create a rotating force interacting between the fields, and a rotating force is of course a torque.

So for a synchronous induction motor to generate a torque to drive a load connected to its shaft a displacement must exist and it gets larger as the torque increases.

As a thought experiment imagine two North-South bar magnets, each on their own spindle brought together but not quite touching with the spindles in line. The magnets will orientate so opposite poles are adjacent. Hold one spindle still and try turning the other spindle and one would feel the force of interaction. It’s the same when the spindles are rotating at the same speed. The physics is of course that forces moved through distance creates mechanical work. For the left spindle to do work on the right spindle it must have an angular displacement ahead in the direction of rotation or lead. For the right spindle to do work on the left spindle, the direction of rotation remaining unchanged, then the right spindle must lead on the left or the left lag on the right. When work is done energy is moved from on place or form to another. In the first case the energy transfer is left to right and the second case right to left.

Now to the asynchronous induction motor(AIM). Instead of a permanent magnet or dc electromagnet to create the rotor field it relies on the transformer effect of coupling between the changing magnetic field of the energised stator and the closed loop conductors of the rotor to excite the rotor magnetic field through induced currents in those conductors. Fleming’s left hand rule again and the rotating stator field exerts a torque on the rotor causing it to accelerate in angular speed until the resultant torque on becomes zero. A steady state condition.

In the steady state of an AIM, the relative angular velocity between the rotating stator and rotor fields, necessary to the induced currents in the rotor by Fleming’s Right Hand rule, means the mechanics of the rotor revolves at a lower speed than the stator field ; at a speed of (1-s) x Ns where Ns is the synchronous speed.

One needs to bear in mind too, that the changing displacement between the mechanical rotor and the stator field induces a current and thence a magnetic field whose flux vector is rotating around the rotor, with respect to the mechanical rotor at a speed of s x Ns. But the mechanical rotor is revolving at (1-s)Ns so the speed of rotation of the rotor field with respect to the windings of the stator field is

{(1-s) x Ns} + {s x Ns} = Ns. Lo and behold the two flux vectors rotate at the same speed and in step – no slippage. There is though, as explained before an angular displacement between them – which I will call D. So even though there is slippage in an AIM there is still synchronism between the flux vectors.

A little more physics I am afraid but stay with me please.

Real mechanical systems have friction, elasticity and inertia. In combination these determine the way a system responds to a driving force/torque. When all elasticity and inertia are present the system will oscillate in response to step change in force. If friction is present as well these oscillations will decay away. A motor connected driving a load through its shaft is such a system – the motor provides both the driving force/torque and contributes mechanically with the load to produce a harmonic oscillator. When there is a step change in torque the system will oscillate. How so if the stator and rotor fields are in synchronism?

The answer lies in the necessary angular displacement between the two fields, the flux vector phase angle D – remember the spindle bar magnet thought experiment earlier – to produce a force/torque between fields rotating in synchronism?

The final strait. When there is a step change in voltage let’s say down, the driving torque produced by the motor, which is proportional to Vsquared, decreases. Thus the twisting of the driving shaft and or stretching of any belts or chains lessens. What happens to D depends now on the relative inertia of the load and rotor. In the case when motor rotor inertia is higher than the loads, the angular deceleration of the rotor is slower than that of the load and D remains positive and the motor remains motoring. On the other hand, if the inertia of the load is higher than the motor – say a large fan – the motor attempts to decelerate faster than the load and the displacement angle D may approach zero and even become negative for a brief period. The interaction between the stator and rotor fluxes acts like a form of elasticity – magnetic elastic. When D is zero there is no torque applied to the load. When D is less than zero – the rotor field leads the stator field. In this situation the torque reverses in direction as the motor acts to decelerate the load. This is so-called regenerative braking. The rotor magnetic field is doing work on the stator field – the energy transfer is from the load to stator magnetic field. The motor is being driven by the load and acting as a generator.

In response then to the step change in voltage down, there is a consequent step change in shaft torque, which when subjected to an inertia, mass, friction system excites a decaying oscillatory accelerations one way and the other in the shaft. The displacement angle D also oscillates and decays to a new steady state where D is lagging once more and the motor is motoring.

The oscillation of the displacement of the flux vectors causes low frequency emfs and thus currents in the stator and rotor coils. Those emfs/currents in the stator windings are impressed on the supply network, and because they are of low frequency any inductive reactance in series with these currents present little impedance. Low frequency emfs/currents circulating in an already loaded and resistive network cause oscillatory variations in voltage drop and thence low frequency flickering of lights.

The oscillation of the angle D is sometimes called hunting or phase swinging and occurs in alternators too.

Actually of course the situation is even more complex because the Voltage- torque – speed characteristics of the motor interact with the kinematics of the load neither of which are linear.

For completeness – when slippage is less than zero the motor is acting as a regenerative brake. When slippage is between zero and one the motor is motoring. When slippage is greater than one the motor is generating.

This is the gist of what was going through my mind when I wrote my post.
 
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Well I'm thinking that there's a high resistance connection on an overhead line,[Or have WPD checked this out without finding anything already]
 
Thank you for the extra information that your lamps are mostly LED types. You probably know LED are very responsive to the current flow through them hence there use in TV screens.

I suspect you may have a number of electrical problems which are causing your lamps to flicker and dim. The dimming is pretty straightforward to explain - a reduction in mains voltage leading to a reduction in current through the LED lamp and this reduced light output. The discovery by WP of a high resistance or unreliable contact somewhere is probably the best bet to explain the dipping of voltage when you load up the supply be switching on appliances like the electric kettle and electric cooker. A sag of 10 volts is certainly going to be registered by a simply switched on/off GU10 LED lamp and the same too for low voltage LED lamps unless the LED driver in use provides good regulation.

So, further questions are:

a. Are your LED lamps mains or low voltage types and if the latter have you used the correct driver for the lamp in use?

b. Irrespective of the voltage of the LED lamps are you using the correct type of dimmer? Normally the manufacturer advises on what to use to dim their lamps. The usual dimmer for an incandescent lamp uses a technique called leading edge sinusoid current switching whereas LEDS normally require trailing edge switching.

c. Are the dimmers loaded up sufficiently to exceed the minimum load requirement?

d. Are the lamps of one controlled circuit all the same make and model?

So some ideas on what you might investigate.

Could you clarify you problem statement for me? I read it that when you load up your supply by turning on the kettle and cooker you observe dimming and flickering. Am I correct or is it just the dimming that is coincident?
 
Dear Cypher 007 - You will want to know what to do next to resolve your flickering LED lighting if it persists even after WP fix a power supply problem. Earlier I suggested a voltage regulator.

Before that you should ensure compatibility between lamps and their dimmers and/or drivers. If that still does not resolve the problem try purchasing either a resistive load or capacitive load to wire in parallel with the lamps (see their installation instructions for more detail). Danlers UK make such components ; DANLERS Ltd. Energy Saving Lighting Controls & Controls for HVAC - DANLERS, Controls for Lighting & HVAC and TLC-Direct.co.uk supply them with the order code DN RESLOAD and DNCAPLOAD. They cost about £20 and £5 respectively. You would only need one per switched circuit and for starters try the CAPLOAD.

The CAPLOAD when connected across the LED lamp or its driver reduces the lagging power factor and thus makes the impedance of the load on the dimmer more resistive in character. A CAPLOAD should suit smaller total loads of LED lamps. For large LED loads you would need the resistive load but as a consequence have to suffer some waste ohmic heating.

I am assuming your are an electrician. If you are not then installing these components requires an electrician to wire them in safely and correctly.
 
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sorry been busy at work.

the voltage sag is when the kettle 2.2kw and 2kw were applied, so about 4kw and it pulled it 10v.

the flickering dimming of leds, I have observed a similar issue in a house in the same road I visited one night, they were incandescent bulbs.

one other house has apparently called in a similar fault. so it would seem the whole road is having voltage issues due to load changes.

my leds are dimmable and I have used varilight led compatible dimmers.

the fridge light can be seen to do it when my immersion solar pv diverter switches the element on and off, 3kw load, and that is an incandescent.
 

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