Scary or Safe? Legal or Seagull?

[Burnt Fingers]

Before anyone thinks it - its not me. I stick to FCU's and baby stuff and I do Minor works forms for changing an accessory because I think i should at my level of competence.

OK - Chap aged a lil older than me (Qualified 1979 no training since) will do domestic CU changes and rewires without any fear, even does special locations, without concerns because he says he has years of experience and he is a Qualified Electrician.
No tests no certs, just wire and fire. I have a Multifunction Tester, that I use, and he just looks at me like I am wearing a dress.

Now I need to do a Part P Limited Scope Course (waits for eggs, bricks and bottles to fly in) because i might want to add a spur in a kitchen, or even....use a mains CCTV camera outside. Consequently I have worked with this bloke for some experience (no touchy just learny) and frankly I have a far better grasp of 7621 and building regs, Inc P.

I have seen him do a lot of things that I would not. I think I should probably not work with him, but, my question is - is this a common situation?

I am very experienced and unqualified so I restrict what I do. But I suspect wht he is doing might actually be a Criminal Offence. At risk of being punched in the face by way of reply, what do you lot think?

 

[ipf]

He's breaking the law, simply. It may come back to haunt him, it may not.

There's no saying how much your learning from him, it's hand's on, I suppose but there's a bit more to this game than housebashing without testing, insurance, qualification, etc, which I think you realize.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

The fact is...many sparks who qualified at that time and have been in the trade ever since resent the gradual incursion of unskilled parasites feeding off skilled tradesmen who are perfectly capable of working safely and properly without 'supervision' from a scam and endless box ticking. They have been working with pride in the job and in depth knowledge and full compliance with the regulations for decades before part P and compulsory pocket emptying by those who have to justify their existance.
The above may or may not apply to the subject of the OP.

 

[Guitarist]

The fact that he has no test gear ultimately means that there will no doubt be occasions when he has walked away from a job, which while working, will not be safe. As already said, he's breaking the law, as well as the regs. No amount of "experience" gives anyone the right to do that.

 

[Andy78]

I agree with above comments about older more experienced sparks resenting part P, and most of them will have a tonne more knowledge than assessors for the schemes. I myself am a scheme member and notify all relevant work, but I don't blame anyone who does work without notifying it, it's their choice not to subscribe to a system that is, at best, flawed in it's structure, implementation, and policing. Having said that, he is technically breaking the law, yes.

However, anyone that carries out electrical work without proper testing and certification has no right calling themselves a spark, fully qualified or not !
This guy sounds like a rare breed (thankfully) of older sparks I have encountered who have "been there done it all" but in reality have just become complacent and rough. They usually talk a good un, but are invariably responsible for massive --------drops on site.

Stop learning off this guy, and consider taking a proper course to gain qualification. Or at least hook up with another veteran to learn from. There are plenty out there who do things properly.


Oh and you say you have a good knowledge of BS7621, but personally I'm not sure how the calibration of solar radiation pyranometers helps you here. :tounge_smile:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Before anyone thinks it - its not me. I stick to FCU's and baby stuff and I do Minor works forms for changing an accessory because I think i should at my level of competence.

OK - Chap aged a lil older than me (Qualified 1979 no training since) will do domestic CU changes and rewires without any fear, even does special locations, without concerns because he says he has years of experience and he is a Qualified Electrician.
No tests no certs, just wire and fire. I have a Multifunction Tester, that I use, and he just looks at me like I am wearing a dress.

Now I need to do a Part P Limited Scope Course (waits for eggs, bricks and bottles to fly in) because i might want to add a spur in a kitchen, or even....use a mains CCTV camera outside. Consequently I have worked with this bloke for some experience (no touchy just learny) and frankly I have a far better grasp of 7621 and building regs, Inc P.

I have seen him do a lot of things that I would not. I think I should probably not work with him, but, my question is - is this a common situation?

I am very experienced and unqualified so I restrict what I do. But I suspect wht he is doing might actually be a Criminal Offence. At risk of being punched in the face by way of reply, what do you lot think?

hmm....do you?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The fact that he has no test gear ultimately means that there will no doubt be occasions when he has walked away from a job, which while working, will not be safe. As already said, he's breaking the law, as well as the regs. No amount of "experience" gives anyone the right to do that.

i`v even seen some of em goin into the wholesalers asking for D curve breakers because it `wont hold`...
not even a thought had been paid to loop.....

 

[ian.settle1]

Before anyone thinks it - its not me. I stick to FCU's and baby stuff and I do Minor works forms for changing an accessory because I think i should at my level of competence.

OK - Chap aged a lil older than me (Qualified 1979 no training since) will do domestic CU changes and rewires without any fear, even does special locations, without concerns because he says he has years of experience and he is a Qualified Electrician.
No tests no certs, just wire and fire. I have a Multifunction Tester, that I use, and he just looks at me like I am wearing a dress.

Now I need to do a Part P Limited Scope Course (waits for eggs, bricks and bottles to fly in) because i might want to add a spur in a kitchen, or even....use a mains CCTV camera outside. Consequently I have worked with this bloke for some experience (no touchy just learny) and frankly I have a far better grasp of 7621 and building regs, Inc P.

I have seen him do a lot of things that I would not. I think I should probably not work with him, but, my question is - is this a common situation?

I am very experienced and unqualified so I restrict what I do. But I suspect wht he is doing might actually be a Criminal Offence. At risk of being punched in the face by way of reply, what do you lot think?

Is this a new British Standard and qualification we have to train for?

 

[Spoon]

Is this a new British Standard and qualification we have to train for?

Come on Ian... Dont you have a copy.
BS 7621:1993, ISO 9847:1992 - Method for calibrating field pyranom. Method for calibrating field pyranometers by comparison to a reference pyranometer

 

[tissparks]

We have a so called experienced installer at work, I have to feed him info on calcs, tests, certs and all he says to me is that I'm good cause I keep up to date with the regs! Patronising or what. He can't use a multi tester either! How do these guys get work when I know there's good men on agency books?

 

[telectrix]

are you sure he's not a retrained plumber?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

We have a so called experienced installer at work, I have to feed him info on calcs, tests, certs and all he says to me is that I'm good cause I keep up to date with the regs! Patronising or what. He can't use a multi tester either! How do these guys get work when I know there's good men on agency books?

just bide your time fella...bide your time...
it all comes out in the wash...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

are you sure he's not a retrained plumber?

then when he starts weeping...we find he was no good at that either.....

 

[Guitarist]

i`v even seen some of em goin into the wholesalers asking for D curve breakers because it `wont hold`...
not even a thought had been paid to loop.....

Yep, and also hear all the time "The install doesn't need testing as it's new cable"....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yep, and also hear all the time "The install doesn't need testing as it's new cable"....

lol....
yep...
owt thats new doesn`t need testing for 3 years wouldn`t you know....

 

[7029 dave]

post 3 sums it up, I am from that era,but went to college,but the sparks that teached me the trade had no schooling wat so ever well some of them, but they were bloody good tradesman!!, been out of contracting now a long time ago.Quals don't make you a good tradesman if you have no onsite experience or if you cant hold a screwdriver up the right way. and as for part p what a government money spinner that is,seen guys out there your handy man /kitchenfitter payed the money and boom part p installers qualified sparks don't make me laugh.

 

[Rampantchilli]

I've been in the trade for 24 years now, and honestly, when I first started the company employed over 20 electricians but had only one set of testers, which were held by the supervisor who never went on site.
testing was never done, and certificates were rarely seen by anyone.
even with the 16th ed testing was very limited where I worked, infact I'd say probably towards the end of the 90s testing started to be taken seriously in my experience.
now days, testing I everything, do It before and after you start, it's a very different world now.
The old guy probably has just stuck to the old school way of doing stuff, probably not the best person to learn from, and whilst there are time served sparks still sticking thier head in the sand then the trade as a whole cant complain too much about 18 day course wannabes, they probably won't be any less safe

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I've been in the trade for 24 years now, and honestly, when I first started the company employed over 20 electricians but had only one set of testers, which were held by the supervisor who never went on site.
testing was never done, and certificates were rarely seen by anyone.
even with the 16th ed testing was very limited where I worked, infact I'd say probably towards the end of the 90s testing started to be taken seriously in my experience.
now days, testing I everything, do It before and after you start, it's a very different world now.
The old guy probably has just stuck to the old school way of doing stuff, probably not the best person to learn from, and whilst there are time served sparks still sticking thier head in the sand then the trade as a whole cant complain too much about 18 day course wannabes, they probably won't be any less safe

Yep....I started as an apprentice in the late 70's and the only testing that was done regularly was an IR test of a new build before 'SEEBOARD' would connect.....or if switching on produced an undesirable 'Bang'!.....Real testing and box ticking came in between the 15th and 16th as I recall.

 

[kingeri]

It's hard for me to imagine not testing, I was taught to test from day one, alright that was in 1998 but I used to test everything I did (and obviously still do!). I learned under the first edition of the 16th (yellow) and back then I remember seeing sparks still using the 15th. I remember spending 6 weeks with an old boy who never tested anything, although he did have a tester I think he only used it for fault finding. I remember him installing a ring circuit and just switching it on and plugging a hairdryer into each socket to see if it worked. So I suppose he did do some testing!

 

[MDJ]

I worked for a large firm in the 1990s and there were only about 4 sparks 1 being me that knew how to test out of about 40 pair LOL, and there were some great sparks on that company.