UK Job quotes vs DIY Part P Notification Requirements for bathrooms

[philectrical]

Can I ask what you mean by an individual "point". Does this mean for example, a 1 way 1 gang switch, single socket, or would a single "point" encompass say, a 3 gang switch?

For me, each individual operating point is a point. So a 3 gang switch would be 3 points since they have to have 3 wires. 2 way switches would be 2 points even if they only operate the one light for example.

I saw the building control fee's, which are quite high. To be honest, I might just get some training and end up doing part P myself just for personal use, especially since work can probably be persuaded to pay for it. Wouldn't make me competant on its own, I realise. Two or three LABC fees and it's not far off paid for itself. Plus, it's very interesting stuff, although I think I'm a bit long in the tooth to be going for full registration.

You can't really 'do part p'. Part P is just building regs and there's no course designed to become electrically competent and 'Part P qualified'. Some courses claim 'get Part P qualified' but they're scams. You won't be able to self certify after taking any 'Part P' course - you can only self certify if under a CPS scheme and they only let you on with 2 years experience (post qualifications) now if i recall correctly.

 

[Nine bars of Chocolate]

No amount of training or certification will get around the issue of notification. Electricians face the same fees and either pay LABC directly or join a scheme such as NICEIC or Napit, through whom they can issue required notification.

So the electrician who quoted us £420 was facing fee's of around £250 from LABC? Have I understood correctly?

 

[Nine bars of Chocolate]

For me, each individual operating point is a point. So a 3 gang switch would be 3 points since they have to have 3 wires. 2 way switches would be 2 points even if they only operate the one light for example.

You can't really 'do part p'. Part P is just building regs and there's no course designed to become electrically competent and 'Part P qualified'. Some courses claim 'get Part P qualified' but they're scams. You won't be able to self certify after taking any 'Part P' course - you can only self certify if under a CPS scheme and they only let you on with 2 years experience (post qualifications) now if i recall correctly.

The chap who was originally going to do the work was a plumber (who has part P we were told) working for a main contractor. I'm confused as to how that would be possible given what you've said, but the main contractor is reputable.

I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, which isn't unusual, at least according to my wife.

 

[SJD]

Notification fee via a scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT) is just a few £, but there are annual membership fees of circa £600 to be able to do this.

Direct notification via LABC is often quite costly (many £ hundreds), as generally they want to discourage this. In some cases, set as high as they dare in the hope nobody goes down that route.

 

[nicebutdim]

So the electrician who quoted us £420 was facing fee's of around £250 from LABC? Have I understood correctly?

See below

Notification fee via a scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT) is just a few £, but there are annual membership fees of circa £600 to be able to do this.

Direct notification via LABC is often quite costly (many £ hundreds), as generally they want to discourage this. In some cases, set as high as they dare in the hope nobody goes down that route.

 

[Nine bars of Chocolate]

Notification fee via a scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT) is just a few £, but there are annual membership fees of circa £600 to be able to do this.

Direct notification via LABC is often quite costly (many £ hundreds), as generally they want to discourage this. In some cases, set as high as they dare in the hope nobody goes down that route.

As far as I know, the plumber wouldn't have been qualified to notify via NICEIC or NAPIT. Don't they require apprenticeship training or similar? I'm dragging this thread quite a bit off topic now to be fair, so I'll go off and do some research.

Now I might have a bit of a moan directed towards the ether

If the direct notification fee's are so inflated, no wonder we see so much property at work (construction/development) that isn't certified. To be quite honest, even my own house, a build from 2005 by Ben Bailey, absolutely doesn't comply with building regs in multiple areas and would certainly fail LABC inspection. It was probably done under type approval and is shoddy, to say the least. Actually, I'm being kind, the standard of build is so outrageously poor.

As one example, as part of this project, after taking down a plasterboard ceiling we found a roof joist without a hanger on one end. They had tacked the hanger up, but forgotten to install it, so there was literally a free range roof joist above our bathroom. Also, we have found huge circular holes cut through i-joist web, non reinforced notches in the i-joist flanges, ridiculous plumbing, electrical cables running diagonally behind plasterboard. The list is endless. To cap it all, the flooring turned out to be chipboard glued and nailed directly to ijoists, which, as you probably know, dear reader, have flanges made of laminated wood (ply), so use of glue is an absolute disaster.

As a result, I trust nothing in our house anymore and honestly believe that anything I personally do, is an upgrade on what was originally installed. I do at least know how to terminate a cable and the basic principles of continuity testing etc. I am also cautious, which is an attribute I'd expect electricians to be familiar with. lol

You guys are like gold, honestly. I really appreciate your help in understanding things. I'm sure I'll get there, one day.

 

[nicebutdim]

As one example, as part of this project, after taking down a plasterboard ceiling we found a roof joist without a hanger on one end. They had tacked the hanger up, but forgotten to install it, so there was literally a free range roof joist above our bathroom. Also, we have found huge circular holes cut through i-joist web, non reinforced notches in the i-joist flanges, ridiculous plumbing, electrical cables running diagonally behind plasterboard. The list is endless. To cap it all, the flooring turned out to be chipboard glued and nailed directly to ijoists, which, as you probably know, dear reader, have flanges made of laminated wood (ply), so use of glue is an absolute disaster.

As a result, I trust nothing in our house anymore and honestly believe that anything I personally do, is an upgrade on what was originally installed. I do at least know how to terminate a cable and the basic principles of continuity testing etc. I am also cautious, which is an attribute I'd expect electricians to be familiar with. lol

Unfortunately, nothing seems particularly unusual about the above

 

[philectrical]

The chap who was originally going to do the work was a plumber (who has part P we were told) working for a main contractor. I'm confused as to how that would be possible given what you've said, but the main contractor is reputable.

I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, which isn't unusual, at least according to my wife.

There is no 'part p' that you can have that will allow you to notify. There's the C&G 2393-10 which is a building regs qualification but it doesn't mean the guy is competent, doesn't mean he's trained, and doesn't allow him to notify without paying building control. The likelihood is he wasn't going to notify at all.

Proper qualified electricians who have every single qualification and have done an apprenticeship (easily encapsulating the building regs and 'part p') aren't even allowed to notify. You can only notify without paying the big building control fee if you're part of a scheme.

 

[philectrical]

As far as I know, the plumber wouldn't have been qualified to notify via NICEIC or NAPIT. Don't they require apprenticeship training or similar? I'm dragging this thread quite a bit off topic now to be fair, so I'll go off and do some research.

Before September last year anyone who'd done a 6 week course and gotten their Level 3 was being accepted onto the schemes. Basically you could have gone to a training provider, coughed up around £5k, done a 6 week course with no prior knowledge and then straight out to join the scheme. The rules, i believe, have just changed to make it a lot harder to join. No more 'domestic installer' course graduates are eligible to join the schemes, as far as i'm aware. However it may be the case that those who did a domestic installer course and are already registered might be able to carry on their membership.

If the direct notification fee's are so inflated, no wonder we see so much property at work (construction/development) that isn't certified. To be quite honest, even my own house, a build from 2005 by Ben Bailey, absolutely doesn't comply with building regs in multiple areas and would certainly fail LABC inspection. It was probably done under type approval and is shoddy, to say the least. Actually, I'm being kind, the standard of build is so outrageously poor.

That's just new builds for you i'm afraid. The electrics are always done by qualified people but they are lashed in because the money is either crap or they're on a price and wanting to get as much in as possible as quickly as possible.

It's also the case that the firms building these places want them to pass inspection so will often hide defects so building control will give them the paperwork on time. They're under huge pressure to deliver and get clients into the houses on time. The overall standard of workmanship from every trade on new builds is appalling and that's putting it mildly. I know because i grew up labouring on them and then advanced onto doing the snagging for them. We're talking pots put under taps behind bath panels to catch leaks instead of fixing them. We're talking gluing sinks down with just clear silicone without the clips because it's quicker. We're talking roof strapping not fixed down. We're talking guttering where only half the clips are actually screwed home. Appalling.

As one example, as part of this project, after taking down a plasterboard ceiling we found a roof joist without a hanger on one end. They had tacked the hanger up, but forgotten to install it, so there was literally a free range roof joist above our bathroom. Also, we have found huge circular holes cut through i-joist web, non reinforced notches in the i-joist flanges, ridiculous plumbing, electrical cables running diagonally behind plasterboard. The list is endless. To cap it all, the flooring turned out to be chipboard glued and nailed directly to ijoists, which, as you probably know, dear reader, have flanges made of laminated wood (ply), so use of glue is an absolute disaster.

Sounds normal.

As a result, I trust nothing in our house anymore and honestly believe that anything I personally do, is an upgrade on what was originally installed. I do at least know how to terminate a cable and the basic principles of continuity testing etc. I am also cautious, which is an attribute I'd expect electricians to be familiar with. lol

You guys are like gold, honestly. I really appreciate your help in understanding things. I'm sure I'll get there, one day.

I'm all for guys wanting to learn and i'm not so heavily leaning on the side of 'you must get a spark in for everything' like some. At the end of the day it's not difficult work, it's very easy to ensure you're doing a safe job but some stuff does come only with experience.

Wiring up a circuit isn't hard, and it's not inherently dangerous if you follow a few basic principles. A lot of stuff against the regs isn't inherently dangerous, it's just against regs. There's a difference.

If you do want to learn i'd say the first thing is, get a voltage and continuity tester, one with prongs, and use it on every single circuit you are going to touch even if the consumer unit is off at the mains. I have a friend who put his hand behind a board and grabbed a cable and got a belt because it was an old feed from elsewhere.

The main problem you'll have is if you're modifying circuits you really need to know what the circuit is already doing before you can modify it. Sometimes it'll look like part of a ring but it might be a spur.

Take my kitchen for example. It was on a 32a breaker, two legs into the breaker, all neutrals present. Only had 3 sockets in the kitchen, two doubles and one single. Pull the fronts off, and every socket had one cable to it. Luckily i could pull floors up because i was remodelling and it turns out they'd put both legs to a junction box and just spur'd off for each socket and essentially just run 2x 2.5mm cable to an arbitrary place and then run radials from that, completely pointless. I wouldn't have been able to add several sockets more to any of the sockets.

Little things like that.

 

[Markyd]

The chap who was originally going to do the work was a plumber (who has part P we were told) working for a main contractor. I'm confused as to how that would be possible given what you've said, but the main contractor is reputable.

I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, which isn't unusual, at least according to my wife.

A plumber?....would you ask a sparky to fit a new boiler? ....£420 for that job you should bite his hand off

 

[timhoward]

Before September last year anyone who'd done a 6 week course and gotten their Level 3 was being accepted onto the schemes. Basically you could have gone to a training provider, coughed up around £5k, done a 6 week course with no prior knowledge and then straight out to join the scheme

It was even worse than that, bs7671 18th edition exam and two years experience and you were in as a DI.

The rules, i believe, have just changed to make it a lot harder to join. No more 'domestic installer' course graduates are eligible to join the schemes, as far as i'm aware. However it may be the case that those who did a domestic installer course and are already registered might be able to carry on their membership.

Yes, now even some decent sparks can’t get in very easily if they have long standing experience as opposed to bits of paper. Once in you can stay in.

The whole thing is nuts, particularly given most customers don’t even know they need the vague and almost useless bit of paper that we spend hundreds each year to have the ability to issue.

 

[OnlQQker]

£180 for a haircut?!?! Is that a typo?

Cut dye and blow dry...it's a dear do being a woman.

I'll do it for £1.80

My petrol leaf blower will have it dry in a couple of seconds!

 

[Nine bars of Chocolate]

Just to update this thread since you were all so helpful.

We were left up the creek without a paddle as unfortunately the electrician we had coming fell ill and couldn't come for at least another week. I considered contacting the chap from the forum as suggested, but we were going to end up putting the bathroom fitters off for a 3rd time if we did so.

In the end, we decided to remove the shaver socket from the installation and stick to items that I believe all fall outside of Part P notification requirements. Also, we were replacing items rather than creating new circuits, unless I've misunderstood the meaning of a "new circuit".

I did as suggested and purchased a voltage and continuity tester as well as a voltage detection pen type device, both made by Fluke.

It all works, on the suface at least, although I realise that's no guarantee it's entirely correct/safe. Having said that, I'm confident in whats been done.

During the work I found a cable which had been damaged during demolitions presumably and the bare earth was visible, so that was a good find.

I was thinking about putting up a separate thread about the work performed and asking for feedback, but not sure if this is allowed but surely you all enjoy a good chuckle?

Thanks again everyone.

 

[James]

We like pictures, be warned, you are likely to get honest an honest review!!

 

[Nine bars of Chocolate]

We like pictures, be warned, you are likely to get honest an honest review!!

Wouldn't be much use if it wasn't! When it comes to electrics and plumbing, if I have messed up I'd rather know about it. Not a fan of fire or flooding lol. I just appreciate the feedback, I really do.

Here's the current state of my wiring. I hope I wired it correctly. The floating brown wire was awaiting connection to common live in the double switch (now done). The FCU is serving only the extractor fan (class 2) and is fused at 3amps. Flex is due to fan having flex retainers.

The double switch serves a junction box, to which is connected 3 LED drivers, 1 driver per light fitting, which are 8.7W 500mA, IP44. The second switch is for mood lighting at a later date, so is presently terminated into a debox in the loft space.

I've run brand new cable everywhere, it's all 1mm, except the flex, which annoyingly is a rather portly 1.5mm as Screwfix were out of 1mm 2 core flex. Tried to label everything up so we didnt get confused.

Like the MK stuff, but the terminal screws were super tight and they aren't particularly aesthetic. Hoping to upgrade to Hamilton at some point, budget permitting.

I'll take some more pictures when we start fixing everything down. Quite a few floating junction boxes at the moment whilst we fix the cables.

One question I did have was whether or not it would be acceptable to permanently join the supply for this lighting radial using a debox, or whether there is a better, more long term solution. The supply was simply too short for any work to be carried out so we've had to join it.

Many thanks.

 

[123]

Have to say until that photo I have never seen or come across a dry lining box installed before the plasterboard.

PS I like that you have labelled every cable. One thing on that I'd do would be to have the label inside the dry lining box so it's still there for future reference.

PPS Why flex cable for the fan?

 

[nicebutdim]

Here's the current state of my wiring. I hope I wired it correctly. The floating brown wire was awaiting connection to common live in the double switch (now done). The FCU is serving only the extractor fan (class 2) and is fused at 3amps. Flex is due to fan having flex retainers.

 

[Nine bars of Chocolate]

Have to say until that photo I have never seen or come across a dry lining box installed before the plasterboard.

PS I like that you have labelled every cable. One thing on that I'd do would be to have the label inside the dry lining box so it's still there for future reference.

PPS Why flex cable for the fan?

In all honesty, whilst I wish I could claim I'd invented an entirely new installation technique on my first attempt. In reality it was because I hadn't a clue how long (short) to trim the cables to fit, so I thought I'd better put everything in situ to avoid problems later. It will all be taken off for boarding over the stud work but at least the cables will have found their shape, so to speak and fortunately it did fit, just, and without too much pressure on the connections.

The run to that backbox was difficult. Being on the 3rd floor (eaves), I had to take it on the underside of the paper backed insulation, which has battens. This is above the studwork top plate. It was fiddly for a first timer like me. Ended up using 25mm conduit as a precaution against studwork screws and/or later work and to avoid the cables moving outside of the permitted zones, especially the flex. All that added to this afternoons drama but I did find out that a PEX pipe cutter does a decent job on conduit.

I will move the labels yes, had them labelled for the pull through but as you say, would be useful to have them in the backbox itself, or just slightly above.

How much slack is it normal to leave? Or is that literally a case of "how long is a piece of cable"?

Flex cable for the fan because it has a round punch out on a rubber grommet as a cable entry point, then a rounded clamp further inside the termination housing (terminology?). It's not perfect. I found flex annoying to work with. All the strands, a real faff for someone as cack handed as me, especially into tiny terminals, but it being 1.5mm didnt help with the terminals clearly being designed for 1mm.

We talked at home tonight and I think we are going to rewire all the flex to the fan and LED drivers as 1mm (assuming proper cable spec), and use some little crimpy things on the ends, to effectively turn the multi strand into solid wire at the termination. If you know the name of those little bits of copper and what I need to crimp them down, I'm all ears!

 

[nicebutdim]

If you know the name of those little bits of copper and what I need to crimp them down, I'm all ears!

Decent enough set for very little money - just make sure crimps are secure.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Preciva-CP621200-Crimper-Self-adjustable-Crimping/dp/B073TZ5BBG/ref=sr_1_5?crid=LUARCBAH9DEN&keywords=preciva&qid=1649545532&sprefix=perciva%2Caps%2C422&sr=8-5