insulation boxes for downlighters

[james beckford]

a quick question for any one who can give me a definitive answer please.

fitting downlighters in a new build house into bathroom ceiling with about 1m of insulation above.

Client has specified LED so no heat problems and i dont need insulation boxes to provide clearance HOWEVER leds could be replaced by halogens, do i need to install boxes as client has specified leds or can i go without?

If client later changes bulbs and puts halogens in and burns house down who's liable ?

 

[markc123]

can you not just stick hoods above the fittings to be safe?

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better to be safe than sorry

 

[james beckford]

Yes i can, i have the fold up galv steel boxes for the job but its 9 quid per d/lighter off the profit

can anyone confirm that i am correct in that i dont require the boxes with LEDS as no heat to dissipate ?

 

[rattlehead85]

Are these downlighters not fire rated anyway?
If the loft space is directly above the bathroom you can get away with cutting around the insulation where the fittings are sited. As long as the loft is not boarded you will not need hoods or box covering. Refer to BPG 5 for guidance.

 

[james beckford]

unfortunately cant just cut away insulation as then no longer meets current building regs. Thats what these steel boxes were invented for but a 9 quid a pop id rather not fit if i dont have to.

The lights themselves are firerated otherwise i would need a fire hood as well which in itself might be an interesting combination, fire hood and insulation box :confused5:

 

[rattlehead85]

Cut insulation in a loft around a light fitting don't meet building regs since when? certainly dont if ya cover them with it. I stand corrected though if there is a stipulation mind.

 

[james beckford]

Havent got the books to hand but in discussion with LABC was informed that the new regulations require the UNINTERRUPTED fitting of insulation throughout the entire roof void, this could be acheived either by fitting the solid typre board to underside of roof or the 350mm of normal type above ceiling but you cant cut holes in it, hence the steel boxes with air holes to go over the down lighters and then the insulation rolls back over the top of the box, boxes are either 220mm or 350mm deep depending on size of light fitting.

 

[Dan the spark]

Why cant you just put fire rated downlights in, that's all I use?

 

[Octopus]

You should install the new lights to the manufacturers instructions and to BS 7671

IF the numpty of the home owner changes it later then its their problem. (If I get the feeling the homeowner is also a DIY bodger I take a few photos for my records)

 

[james beckford]

cant find anything in 7671 that differentiates between halogens and leds

 

[Octopus]

cant find anything in 7671 that differentiates between halogens and leds

And you wont. Please read #9 again.

 

[rattlehead85]

Havent got the books to hand but in discussion with LABC was informed that the new regulations require the UNINTERRUPTED fitting of insulation throughout the entire roof void, this could be acheived either by fitting the solid typre board to underside of roof or the 350mm of normal type above ceiling but you cant cut holes in it, hence the steel boxes with air holes to go over the down lighters and then the insulation rolls back over the top of the box, boxes are either 220mm or 350mm deep depending on size of light fitting.

Interesting point that. Makes reasonable sense will bare it in mind for the future. I do know you can obviously cover the fitting if enclosed from above with a hood or box or if the fitting is specifically code marked for covering as stated in the green book.

 

[Dan the spark]

James after re-reading your original post, are you fitting led fittings or are you fitting standard downlights but with led lamps?

 

[james beckford]

Hi Murdoch, sorry probably wasnt being clear enough on that point, two glasses of mouton cadet after a long day,

as i said havent got green book to hand but reading it earlier i have to provide suitable protection against thermal effects ie dont start any fires, hence the question, if i use leds no heat to cause fire but do i have to install in such a way to protect against unqualified person changing his mind about the bulbs and putting halogens in later ?

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Hi Dan,

Standard fittings but with led bulbs

 

[Octopus]

Hi Murdoch, sorry probably wasnt being clear enough on that point, two glasses of mouton cadet after a long day,

as i said havent got green book to hand but reading it earlier i have to provide suitable protection against thermal effects ie dont start any fires, hence the question, if i use leds no heat to cause fire but do i have to install in such a way to protect against unqualified person changing his mind about the bulbs and putting halogens in later ?

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Hi Dan,

Standard fittings but with led bulbs

Cool!

I still think you can't spend your time allowing for numpty DIYer's making changes later.

 

[james beckford]

thats what i thought but knowing what the litigation brigade would make of the case should the worst happen didnt want to leave myself open.
I think the solution is not fit the boxes but give the client a set of instructions about what type of bulbs can be fitted and get him to sign a copy as read and understood, 10pence worth of paper and ink against 150 quid off profit for the job

 

[GT1]

People still confusing fire rated downlights with the need to keep insulation away from the back of downlights.

The fire rating of downlights refers only to their ability to slow down the rate of fire progression through the light fitting..
The intumescent strip expands on contact with high temps and seals the hole to prevent further fire progression. They are to be fitted when penetrating an "existing" fire barrier with light fittings.

They are JUST as likely to overheat and cause a fire if you cover them with insulation.

Fitting fire rated downlights does not absolve you from sorting out the insulation above.

 

[telectrix]

nick a few shopping baskets from tesco. place inverted over downlights. insulation on t6op of baskets.unk:

edit: make sure to earth the baskets.

 

[Jonny66]

IMO its quite simple, if continuous insulation is a requirement then you have 3 options.....1) no down lights, 2) fit downlights which can be covered by insulation (NOT JUST FIRE RATED), 3) use the box/cover............option 2 would be quite expensive, so I would opt for option 3..however, sod the £9 metal boxes, just get some plaster board and cut it into sections so that it covers each downlight and screw it on cieling joists either side, creating a bridge for the insulation..hey presto sorted

 

[i=p/u]

dome a house recently where they put that insulation board 100mm thick in rafters, when putting downlights in here do you just bore right through it, which in turn breaks u values specified,

 

[Jonny66]

Dont think your suppose to, I believe your suppose to battern it out so its lifted off the light. But I'd just bore it out and make a nice little gap all around the light with a stanley cos I couldnt care less about the u value.but thats just me

 

[richy3333]

Why can't you ad the cost of the boxes/hoods to the job? Fixed price? If so fit em, bite the bullet and sleep easy at night. Live and learn mate.

 

[SJD]

..however, sod the £9 metal boxes, ...

I need quite a few of the metal boxes for a loft, and started looking around to see if it really is necessary to pay £9 each for a small sheet of metal. Best I've seen so far is £4.75 excl. VAT and shipping, if I buy 25 then it will work out at just over £6 each incl. VAT and shipping.
Aurora A2-DIG250 Galvanised Steel Downlight Insulation Guard L:220mm x W:220mm x H:140mm, A2-DIG250

 

[Jonny66]

Waste of money, a sheet of plasterboard cost about £5, and you could probably make about 6 flat covers with it.....

 

[SJD]

Waste of money, a sheet of plasterboard cost about £5, and you could probably make about 6 flat covers with it.....

If this was my own house, I'd probably do as you say.

But in this case I don't want to take any risk that I installed something that was not fit for purpose, e.g. in event of subsequent problem (like a fire).
At least buying a product approved for what I'm using it for means I only need to ensure it is installed per manufacturer's instructions and intended application.

 

[Jonny66]

Cant see there being any problems what so ever using plasterboard to bridge over downlights.........plasterboard is not flammable, it will keep the insulation off the downlights and provide the desired air gap around the light....... this would be no different (well not much) from say fixing the recessed downlights below the ceiling just like a surface mounted light.

 

[Robert Turnbull]

What are you meant to do on a vaulted ceiling?

When ever i've fitted down lights in these (New build/extension i.e. new ceiling) i've told them to leave 300mm gaps the the celotex for the fittings.

This has now made the insulation non continuous ??

 

[Jonny66]

Yep, I've done same, but come on in the scheme of things who cares..I know I dont ...

 

[Heisenberg]

fitting downlighters in a new build house into bathroom ceiling with about 1m of insulation above.

1 metre of insulation :rolleyes4:

Are you having a laugh?

 

[i=p/u]

air gap between this and planes

 

[shocking_eg]

just because there LED it doesnt mean the fitting can be covered with insulation ! Some LED's can produce quite alot of heat still so if they are running warm im sure they wont last 5 mins