POLL - Neutrals at switches

[Smudge]

ok ok, my humble apologies, i'll scrap everything i've learned in the last 15years by qualified electrical and engineering lecturers because you disagree. 15 years is merely a speck in the grand scheme of a career, but surely even from the heights of your high horse you might be able to see the wood for the trees. And i will also apologise for working in the 'non-prestige', lower end housing developments with the other 99.9% of sparks, the shame of us. Some day i hope to be able to look down on the rest with such contempt as you are doing.

Now if you pick up your toys, dust off the dummy, answer the original point i put forward instead of insulting the modern apprenticeship and anyone that works on a building site...can you please give the advatages of a loop in system?? and the disadvantages of it at the switches?

 

[VoltzElectrical]

is this thread really still running, or is it a bad dream?

 

[Engineer54]

ok ok, my humble apologies, i'll scrap everything i've learned in the last 15years by qualified electrical and engineering lecturers because you disagree. 15 years is merely a speck in the grand scheme of a career, but surely even from the heights of your high horse you might be able to see the wood for the trees. And i will also apologise for working in the 'non-prestige', lower end housing developments with the other 99.9% of sparks, the shame of us. Some day i hope to be able to look down on the rest with such contempt as you are doing.

Now if you pick up your toys, dust off the dummy, answer the original point i put forward instead of insulting the modern apprenticeship and anyone that works on a building site...can you please give the advantages of a loop in system?? and the disadvantages of it at the switches?

Really!! i didn't know the down turn had been going on for 15 years or more!!! Well you learn something new every day!! lolI

I work on building sites, ....Big building sites and have done for the best part of my working life.

Instead of trying to be a Smart Arse, You tell me why you would want a neutral being distributed in switch boxes that just sits there in the vast majority of cases, doing Nothing. And perhaps tell us why you consider a switch box that can end up jammed full of cables, because your looping through switch boxes is BETTER?? (I think someone posted a photo of just such a situation on this thread somewhere) Seen it far too many times, where it becomes an art form just to try and get the front switch plates into even deep boxes... As i've said, if you NEED a neutral at a switch position fine, i have no problem with that at all, but looping for the sake of it. ...No way!!!

Why is it you always mention downlights when hailing the neutral switch loop system?? Only one of the downlight positions will have a max of 4 T&E's that need to be connected, the rest will just be looping between the downlights when using the ceiling 3 plate system. So apart from that one position, it's exactly the same wiring, as looping through the switches.

Basically, ...I don't give a monkey's how you wire an installation, you do whatever you want to do, but your not in a month of sunday's going to convince me a switch loop lighting system is BETTER than the recognised and established wiring systems, and that's the end of, as far as i'm concerned...

 

[Smudge]

you picked up your toys, were doing so well, then threw them right back out the pram.

if you look at my original point, which had 'MY' reasons for neutral switch position (not having to unneccessarily fish ceilings, wall lights, and as someone else has also pointed out, a lot of the newer digital etc), and then asks for 'PRO' arguments for loop in at fittings. And then a tongue in cheek comment about dinosaurs. This i believe is where you have come charging in full guns blazing insulting any job you deem beneath you. My apologies if you took my original statement literally instead of the joking manner it was meant, but i have worked hard to get where i am and won't be looked down on by the 'old heads'.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Really!! i didn't know the down turn had been going on for 15 years or more!!! Well you learn something new every day!! lolI

I work on building sites, ....Big building sites and have done for the best part of my working life.

Instead of trying to be a Smart Arse, You tell me why you would want a neutral being distributed in switch boxes that just sits there in the vast majority of cases, doing Nothing. And perhaps tell us why you consider a switch box that can end up jammed full of cables, because your looping through switch boxes is BETTER?? (I think someone posted a photo of just such a situation on this thread somewhere) Seen it far too many times, where it becomes an art form just to try and get the front switch plates into even deep boxes... As i've said, if you NEED a neutral at a switch position fine, i have no problem with that at all, but looping for the sake of it. ...No way!!!

Why is it you always mention downlights when hailing the neutral switch loop system?? Only one of the downlight positions will have a max of 4 T&E's that need to be connected, the rest will just be looping between the downlights when using the ceiling 3 plate system. So apart from that one position, it's exactly the same wiring, as looping through the switches.

Basically, ...I don't give a monkey's how you wire an installation, you do whatever you want to do, but your not in a month of sunday's going to convince me a switch loop lighting system is BETTER than the recognised and established wiring systems, and that's the end of, as far as i'm concerned...

Think you'll find the same applies to a looped permanant live at a luminaire,why would you want it.??...sits there doing nothing......If you NEED a permant live at the luminaire then fine,I have no problem with that at all,but looping for the sake of it....No way!!!

(just being a smart arse..)..:13:

 

[Jimmyb]

what about all the lights that onlly have enough space for 1 or 2 at the most loop at ceiling is no good.

After all the comments i might just go back to how my old boss said he used to do things and have one cable going up to loft then all live going from that to wall above switch and then a jb, 1 wire to switch then 1 to light. Problem sloved Hahahahahah
Cant belive it was standard practise back in the day

 

[Dave 85]

Think you'll find the same applies to a looped permanant live at a luminaire,why would you want it.??...sits there doing nothing......If you NEED a permant live at the luminaire then fine,I have no problem with that at all,but looping for the sake of it....No way!!!

(just being a smart arse..)..:13:

Damn you just ****ed on my campfire, this is exactly what I was about to point out

 

[Dave 85]

No one way is better than the other in general. I use whichever is quicker but generally favour the neutral at the switch. As has been quite rightly stated above you dont NEED a perm live at the light fitting any more than you NEED a neutral at the switch, talking about what you need is the most BS argument I've ever heard.
Obviously if you plan to have all your wires at the switch you whack yer box in nice and deep and space isn't a problem.

It also makes it far easier to add another seperatly switched light in the future and saves somone having to hunt around for that elusive JB in the cieling.

I also find it quicker to do my wiring at chest height than in a loft or above my head.

Of course for a one pendant per room rewire with solid walls you'd loop the light cos its quicker.

This argument of "It's the better way cos its how we did it in the 70's and I'm set in my ways, old fashioned and completely out of touch" is getting rather tiresome.

 

[oldtimer]

Look you either have a joint box under the floor or in the attic or loop in loop out at each light or wire via the switches but one point you are all missing is there is nothing wrong with all 3 ways of doing it plus the biggest and obvious thing is that I have seen lighting circuits where the conduit is tubed from under the floor up to the switch then up to the light plus switches can be connected back to back so horses for courses

 

[imago]

Nothing wrong with a good debate, but sometimes a subject gets the 4rse kicked right out of it on here.

Personally as long as I can justify the design/layout of a circuit I'll wire it however I think is appropriate (within the regs). Loop in, switched feed, loop into a spider of downlights, loop into each downlight whatever suits the job really.

I was told (quoted down to) by a guy last week that "the NIC say it shouldn't be done in a ring. They want it all to be radials now." My reply was along the lines of "Unless they're going to turn up and pull the cable in the next half hour the NIC can go ........" etc. I hate all these petty little add-ons that get handed out as 'rules'. What happened to tradesmen making a judgement as to what is or isn't appropriate on that job in that location?

I think it was Douglas Bader that said "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

 

[brightspark2010]

I was told by eca helpline that it was acceptable about two years ago but but my reason for doubt is i seem to remember an niceic document way back when i was an apprentice about 2002 saying it was unnacceptable for a neutral condutor to be cut and jointed at the switch position so I am going to say no.

 

[oldtimer]

I was told by eca helpline that it was acceptable about two years ago but but my reason for doubt is i seem to remember an niceic document way back when i was an apprentice about 2002 saying it was unnacceptable for a neutral condutor to be cut and jointed at the switch position so I am going to say no.

So they wont have a neutral at a switch but they are happy to have a live at a light ???? I now know we are a joke when any schemie can throw their 2 bobs worth in the ring not because they are right but because they have an audience and feel they need to say something to impress so for all you guys that get caught in a cosy chat with these clowns just say can you show me where in the regs you cannot do that or so can you put this in writing to me so I can keep it for reference purposes this nonsense is getting out of hand with these guys and I have no doubt they are lurking on this site but thats all they are doing cos they are not giving any input and why well dont be silly they aint going to get caught making a decission in writing

 

[Dave 85]

Imago
Bang on mate. As it happens I've been trying to find that bloody phrase on the net for weeks so I could quote it on this forum. It completely sums up my outlook on life.
Some people are born to be sheep. They don't generally get very far in life.

 

[vernam616]

Some of the answers on here are hilarious, whoever made this myth of neutrals not been allowed at a switch deserves a medal


Why oh why is there any valid reason why not?, 20a dp switch for an immersion has a neutral at it, a switched fused spur to control a heater has a neutral at it etc......

The light switch should be no exception, its a point within the electrical installation and not uncommon or wrong to have a neutral there, it certainly makes lighter work of 2nd fixing

Complete stupidity if you think its "wrong" or " against the regs", i reckon some people should. Go upgrade their electrical qualifications or maybes get some

 

[mackers]

been doing it both ways for last 25 yrs ! more room in a sw box than a drop if you know how to form your wires correctly. so many times i see wires either cut to long or to short!

"can't have N's at switches" ye right thats why some manufactures now make plate sw's with N terminal

majority rule lets call it a day lol

 

[Lucas]

I have come to the conclusion your a complete idiot if you refuse to believe looping at the switch is acceptable.

 

[Engineer54]

Think you'll find the same applies to a looped permanant live at a luminaire,why would you want it.??...sits there doing nothing......If you NEED a permant live at the luminaire then fine,I have no problem with that at all,but looping for the sake of it....No way!!!

(just being a smart arse..)..:13:

Well you try!! lol!!

And i always thought the ceiling permanent 3 plate live and neutral was distributing the live and neutral conductors around the circuit, ...silly me!!!


By the way, i have nothing against the crab/spider wiring method, either.
Lighting circuit conduit runs from floors, do pass a neutral through the switch box, no problem with that either, so long as it's unbroken with no unnecessary joints. Yes they do now make switch plates for a neutral connection, and very useful when a neutral IS required at that switch point...

Anyway this thread had died a death a long time ago, and should again!!
But it won't, as those that need to convince themselves will still be doing just that!!! lol!! I'm out of it...

 

[Deleted member 9648]

well you try!! Lol!!

And i always thought the ceiling permanent 3 plate live and neutral was distributing the live and neutral conductors around the circuit, ...silly me!!!


By the way, i have nothing against the crab/spider wiring method, either.
Lighting circuit conduit runs from floors, do pass a neutral through the switch box, no problem with that either, so long as it's unbroken with no unnecessary joints. Yes they do now make switch plates for a neutral connection, and very useful when a neutral is required at that switch point...

Anyway this thread had died a death a long time ago, and should again!!
But it won't, as those that need to convince themselves will still be doing just that!!! lol!! I'm out of it...

t f f t.........