ELECSA Certification Scheme Regulations Clarification (ELECSA Assesment)

[Midwest]

It wouldn't need to be floor to ceiling trunking, but I could put it floor to ceiling to make it look a little better

Yep that's what I was thinking!

 

[Nickj]

Let's hope current tails are long enough then. Pulling a 10mm earth through cavity will be ok? Or should I go trunking route for that? Would you contact dno to upgrade all the way to cut out or just to the connector?

 

[Midwest]

You delaying my G&T! I see WPD charge £157.26 + vat, to provide a new isolator. Has your pal got the pennies?

 

[Nickj]

You delaying my G&T! I see WPD charge £157.26 + vat, to provide a new isolator. Has your pal got the pennies?

If it's needed for my assesment I'll have to find the pennies. I don't think it is though?

Enjoy your G&T! Nothing better on a Saturday night

 

[Midwest]

If it was me. New WPD isolator. You can then do you bit at your leisure! New 25mm tails & 16mm earth conductor run horizontally through the wall (in flexible conduit) into hallway, then into trunking into ceiling back done in trunking, into RCBO populated CU or High Integrity CU. But then its not my money we're spending. Now that's it, off to the galley. :gru:

 

[Nickj]

Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

To fully comply with regulations I can leave existing tails in place if they fit, or replace tails to isolator using trunking if they don't?

For main earth can I run 10mm through the cavity to the connector block replaced for an earthing terminal?

Upgrade bonding, ensure cabling is safe and in good ordera and then change board.

 

[Midwest]

Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

To fully comply with regulations I can leave existing tails in place if they fit, or replace tails to isolator using trunking if they don't?

For main earth can I run 10mm through the cavity to the connector block replaced for an earthing terminal?

Upgrade bonding, ensure cabling is safe and in good ordera and then change board.

Nope ask away. Yep, except if you do replace tails to 25mm, the earth needs to be 16mm.

Personally I would do what I said in #45. The switch fuse is gonna be a nightmare to terminate into, you can't move it without pulling main fuse, which WPD won't let you do without a bill for £57 + vat (what does their bloke do sit in his van all day, waiting for you to do you bit!), by the way entry into the top of a meter cabinet is a carp. By the by, what was that 100 squids the council wanted, about?

 

[Nickj]

If the current meter tails have enough slack on them to terminate into new CU would you just run a 10mm earth to that connector point and call it a day?

I am going to phone WPD and NPower Monday morning (did try earlier, both closed - unsurprisingly).

The council want £164 inc vat for me to notify, this is an expensive assessment! Costing me a fortune overall

 

[westward10]

Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

To fully comply with regulations I can leave existing tails in place if they fit, or replace tails to isolator using trunking if they don't?

For main earth can I run 10mm through the cavity to the connector block replaced for an earthing terminal?

Upgrade bonding, ensure cabling is safe and in good ordera and then change board.

You are overthinking this, if I was to assess the job and you had left the existing tails in place, upgraded earth and bonds to 10.0 I would not find a problem with it. I would definitely recommend separate rcbos though due to the limited amount of circuits.
The assessor is not there to catch you out, he/she will not ask mind bending questions. They may question your methods but be confident in what you have done.

 

[Nickj]

Thank you westward10, I am seriously stressing over this!

If you could take a look at the first picture I posted where the is a connector block on the earth going to cut out and then onto CU, would you just run a 10mm earth to that block (and upgrade with a proper earthing terminal)? Or would you arrange to have it run all the way to cut out? I'm sure I read somewhere that the demarcation point is that earthing terminal.

There will be 4 or 5 circuits:

Current socket ring
New kitchen ring (if I run one)
Cooker
Immersion
Lights

You'd run 5 rcbos?

I'll check the cost :O

EDIT: Just checked cost and MK is very expensive. Could go BG 10 way board and 5x rcbos for £130 or so.

 

[westward10]

It looks like 6.0 from the head so that will need changing to 16.0. You can then put a small 4 way block in and reduce to 10.0 as circuit protection is then provided by the 60A fuse, put a Safety Electrical Connection-Do Not Remove notice by it. The only problem here is breaking the seal on the head, some may argue the 6.0 is fine but it is inadequate to support the new bonding. If I was assessing I would definitely question using a dual board on those limited circuits, use separate rcbos, in fact you can say to the assessor you chose this method as it provides better division of circuits, not many people would quote this.
Wylex person myself but would avoid MK at all costs.

 

[Richard Burns]

I would suggest you keep it as simple as possible.
Do not do too much more than is required. Do the things that will make your friends life easier as it is best to do them whilst you are making changes, but no more.

Do not stress about it, it is just not worth it.

Change the terminal block on the earth for an earth block and label the block as a safety electrical connection.
Run a 10mm² earth cable from the block to the board.
Use the existing tails if at all possible, bring the consumer unit down if necessary if they are too short.
An all RCBO board would be nice, but if you are short of cash then stick with the dual RCD, divide the lights and sockets and also the cooker and kitchen ring across RCDs, then if the lights go out you can use lamps in the sockets and if the kitchen sockets go out you can use the socket on the cooker point (if there is one) to run the fridge.

If this is your first assessment then it may be possible to do the work (once you know the date of assessment), have the assessment, pass it and then notify through your new membership without involving BC. Not strictly correct but significantly cheaper and easier and usually acceptable so long as you can notify within 20 days of finishing the work. (but of course the work will not be finished until the scheme assessor has been, as there may be changes required!)

 

[Nickj]

Wylex rcbo's are even more than MK it seems. I do like the idea of RCBO's and so I'll put those in a 10 way consumer unit (the BG variety to save my pennies as i'm fast running out!). It really is the way forward it's just such a shame that they are so expensive compared to MCBs and RCDs.

I'll contact WPD on Monday, are they likely to upgrade that free? I guess not. Perhaps I could just pay them to de-energise, would they then let me access the earth and replace?

They really should let us pull the main fuse!

 

[Nickj]

Wylex rcbo's are even more than MK it seems. I do like the idea of RCBO's and so I'll put those in a 10 way consumer unit (the BG variety to save my pennies as i'm fast running out!). It really is the way forward it's just such a shame that they are so expensive compared to MCBs and RCDs.

I'll contact WPD on Monday, are they likely to upgrade that free? I guess not. Perhaps I could just pay them to de-energise, would they then let me access the earth and replace?

They really should let us pull the main fuse!

 

[Nickj]

Thank you Richard.

So changing the connector block to an earth block and running 10mm from there (through the cavity) would definitely be acceptable for assessment?

I'm sure I can reuse existing tails, so no issue there. That would be £180 saved from DNO.

I am only considering a new kitchen ring as in my opinion the sockets are overloaded. It would be easier and cheaper for me to not put it in but again could assessor pick me up on it? Same thing with cooker isolator above cooker, not my fault it's there but should it be changed during a consumer unit change.

Elecsa themselves told me that normally people don't go through council however I am concerned that if I fail the assessment it is then too late to notify through the council and I'll have broken the law.

Money is very tight at the moment having bought a lot of gear to go it alone however I'll find it somewhere if it's needed in hope of recouping when company is trading.

It really annoys me that there are so many unqualified, unregistered "electricians" out there completing extremely bad/dangerous work yet for me to set up properly is breaking the bank

 

[Richard Burns]

For the earth from the cutout to the MET you can say at the assessment, if asked, that you cannot open the cutout legally and make a change to this cable.
The kitchen sockets as a circuit (without anything plugged into it) is acceptable, if after you have changed the consumer unit the owner plugs lots of things into it then that is their choice. As a circuit there is no problem with it (assuming there are no faults on it!).
You could recommend a new ring or put in the observations on the condition of the existing installation that the kitchen could benefit from a dedicated circuit, but this is not part of your job for the consumer unit change.
The cooker isolator so long as it is not damaged is OK to leave, but again you could mention this in the observations.

For the notification as I say if you fail the assessment then there will be changes you need to make to ensure it is compliant and so the job is not completed and the notification period starts after the job is completed.

 

[Nickj]

Richard that is fantastic advice and puts my mind to rest. I'll run 10mm through the cavity (??? Or should I put in trunking?) to the MET next to the main cut out. I'll reuse existing tails and I'll consider RCBOs as the cost isn't much more.

I'll leave the kitchen ring for now (I'll do it for him later when I have a little more cash in the bank!) and I'll leave the cooker switch and make relevant notes on observations.

You've just saved me a lot of money, thank you very much

Is it worth a ring to the DNO to see if they will upgrade their earth connection free as it's only 6mm?

 

[Midwest]

Don't pay the BC anything. The schemes schemes us so scheme the BC. The way it goes, you apply to a scheme, they want to see some work to assess, in this instance CU change. Scheme come and assess, pass you long as you are not going to kill anyone and the cheque don't bounce, then approve you to their scheme and then you notify BC via their web site. Chicken & egg but that's where we are. Don't pay the BC anymore monet than they deserve. Hopefully makes senses few G&T's in !

 

[Richard Burns]

Seeing the meter box is recessed it is probably almost filling the cavity anyway, though it is not ideal the cable has to cross the cavity at some point, whether it does it diagonally or straight across is fairly immaterial and since it will be going upward to the CU any water that might (how)?) get in will drain away from the inside wall.

You can try and ring the DNO and ask about the earth being undersized but I would not hold out much hope, but worth a try. BE prepared to stay on hold for a while and have all the details to hand and be prepared for them to only want to talk to the customer (more likely for the supplier).

The 6mm would likely only be undersized because it is a TNCS (PME) supply and so the earth is also a bonding conductor and so needs to be a minimum of 10mm².
As just an earth it would probably meet the adiabatic equation requirements, but not the bonding limits.

 

[westward10]

Seeing the meter box is recessed it is probably almost filling the cavity anyway, though it is not ideal the cable has to cross the cavity at some point, whether it does it diagonally or straight across is fairly immaterial and since it will be going upward to the CU any water that might (how)?) get in will drain away from the inside wall.

You can try and ring the DNO and ask about the earth being undersized but I would not hold out much hope, but worth a try. BE prepared to stay on hold for a while and have all the details to hand and be prepared for them to only want to talk to the customer (more likely for the supplier).

The 6mm would likely only be undersized because it is a TNCS (PME) supply and so the earth is also a bonding conductor and so needs to be a minimum of 10mm².
As just an earth it would probably meet the adiabatic equation requirements, but not the bonding limits.

Agree but an assessor will use rule of thumb that the earthing conductor to the MET should be 16.0, then 10.0 to the CU as the circuit protection is provided by the 60A fuse.