removal of main cutout fuse

[sparkymatt1987]

Who is to be informed for the removal of a cutout fuse for say a consumer unit change??

 

[miner69er]

you are supposed to contact the distribution network operator (DNO) ie. EDF and ask them to come out and remove the fuse.but you will never get through to who you need to, and then if you do they will give you a time slot of between 07-00 and say 13-00...... we just cannot work like this. so if you look in the past posts you will find mention of lock off wires that are always missing, and due to the Electricity at work regulations we must never work live, so that means you have to pull the fuse. ( by the way, i am not in anyway saying this is right or condone this action) But as my old boss used to say ' i know what you get up to, just never let me catch you doing it'.......!

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

No it doesn't mean you have to cut the tag and pull the fuse it means the tag wasn't there when I came to work on it so it was actually somebody else who cut it :wink5:

 

[Risteard]

and due to the Electricity at work regulations we must never work live, so that means you have to pull the fuse.

EAWR don't state that live working is always prohibited. Incidentally, would you not consider pulling the supplier's fuse to be live working? Very dangerous. Shouldn't be doing it.

 

[telectrix]

it's less dangerous than trying to feed "live" tails into a CU.

 

[alli]

Dont know if any of you work within SSE patch, but I found on their website a pdf that explains that if you are part of a permited trade association they allow you to pull the fuses.

ssepd.co.uk/uploadedFiles/Content/15_News_and_Media/ProcedureOnTheRemoval.pdf <<<put www. in front of <<<

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

I know about 20 sparks...none of them ever ever contact the DNO

 

[Octopus]

The DNO's need to have one consistent policy of allowing members of Part Pschemes to pull fuses in domestic premises.

That said I see a surprising number of fuses without seals!

 

[Knobhead]

Seals? What are they?

 

[ukpablo]

buy some tags on ebay and re-seal after u have finished. I pull it myself and always will as my own H&S is what is important to me( dont like working live). I also purchased some electrical gloves when pulling the fuse to be extra careful. If u contacted the DNO every time u would not make any money! As long as you re-seal after, it stops the customer doing the same and u have left it as safe as u found it. The EAWR regs say we must isolate and not work live so thats what i do. And if they want to take me to court then they can as my life is more important that not pulling and working in a dangerous situation.
Its ur choice but thats what i do!!!
:cheesy:
Best of luck

25 Electrical / Gas Meter Security Seals + Wire Bargain | eBay

 

[Silly Sausage]

EAWR don't state that live working is always prohibited. Incidentally, would you not consider pulling the supplier's fuse to be live working? Very dangerous. Shouldn't be doing it.

Pulling a fuse isn't live working. It's isolation (almost).

 

[GLENNSPARK]

House we have been at today (friday)....old cast iron service head on a TT. My boss has advised the client that they could do with getting the DNO to come out and replace it. I wont be pulling that...he can bloody do it...lol.........

 

[mogga]

House we have been at today (friday)....old cast iron service head on a TT. My boss has advised the client that they could do with getting the DNO to come out and replace it. I wont be pulling that...he can bloody do it...lol.........

Pulling a head fuse is dangerous in SOSO many ways like Glenn has come across an old cast head THIS IS WHY I never advise "JUST PULL IT!" " What seal" ect ect Unless you can see the head and its condition WHY O WHY Would you want to advise someone else to JUST PULL IT??? If the person has to ask the question they are doubting their own competance to do it in the first place IMHO and advising JUST PULL IT may one of these days result in some inexperienced 5 week wonder chap qualified to the hilt getting injured or worse On his head stone they could put "He just Pulled The Fuse!"

 

[Knobhead]

You have to make your own risk assessment of the situation.

Cast iron head with porcelain links I wouldn’t touch now a days. OK I’ve done it in the past, but like me things get brittle with age.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Well as noted on another thread the pulling of the DNO fuse will become a mute discussion as of Jan, as if your wanting to abide by the BS 7671-2008, you can not pull a DNO fuse unless you have that DNO permission.

I would imagine we are going down the same road as our esteem colleges North of the Border.

 

[mechelec]

I think it is all down to personnal risk assesment. ie is it safer to pull the fuse or work live, own competance, condition of equipment, working area, PPE etc.
That said you shouldnt be doing it.
Has anyone on here been reprimanded for pulling a fuse?

 

[Deleted member 19807]

I pulled a 100A 1361 black carrier (with dno permission, sse) only to have it fall in to 2 pieces in my hand, not nice. I called sse and they were out within the hour to replace it. Could have been a lot worse.

 

[ezzzekiel]

are you competent to remove the fuse safely, providing care is taken then its no more dangerous than walking across the street, which leaves the legal issue and in myknowledge no one has ever been prosecuted for ding so and even if they were chances are it wouldnt go to court unless of course the hse has been involved due to accident or injury so with these things in mind make your own informed choice

 

[Octopus]

Dont know if any of you work within SSE patch, but I found on their website a pdf that explains that if you are part of a permited trade association they allow you to pull the fuses.

ssepd.co.uk/uploadedFiles/Content/15_News_and_Media/ProcedureOnTheRemoval.pdf <<<put www. in front of <<<

Very handy. Is there a listing of the area's covered by this?

 

[Deleted member 19807]

i unfortunetly work for those sse clowns!!!

care to spill the beans?

 

[HandySparks]

Well as noted on another thread the pulling of the DNO fuse will become a mute discussion as of Jan, as if your wanting to abide by the BS 7671-2008, you can not pull a DNO fuse unless you have that DNO permission.

I seemed to have missed something. What thread is this, and what are the specific changes in Jan relating to pulling the DNO fuse, please?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Regulation 537.1.4 As been extended in the 1st amendment to include:

"Where the distributor provides a means of disconnection complying with chapter 53 at the origin of the installation and agrees that it may be used as the means of isolation for the part of the installation between the origin and the main linked switch or circuit breaker required by regulation 537.1.4, the requirement for isolation and switching of that part of the installation is satisfied.

Note A cut-out fuse may be withdrawn only by a person authorized to do so by the distributor."

So the regs are now advising us that we should not be pulling cut-out fuses unless we are authorized to do so.

 

[Knobhead]

Work safely? This is getting beyond a joke!

If the DNO’s fitted isolators to EVERY installation then so be it. But they are neglecting their care of duty to my eyes. “Every installation should have a safe means of isolation”.
I’ve had to work to those rules for the last 35 years, why in the name of god are they exempt!

Rant over! :83:

 

[Octopus]

Regulation 537.1.4 As been extended in the 1st amendment to include:

"Where the distributor provides a means of disconnection complying with chapter 53 at the origin of the installation and agrees that it may be used as the means of isolation for the part of the installation between the origin and the main linked switch or circuit breaker required by regulation 537.1.4, the requirement for isolation and switching of that part of the installation is satisfied.

Note A cut-out fuse may be withdrawn only by a person authorized to do so by the distributor."

So the regs are now advising us that we should not be pulling cut-out fuses unless we are authorized to do so.

So are all the distributors going to simplify their proceedures, educate their call centre staff and make the whole process easier for everyone? I doubt it.

Last time I needed a distributor it took me 6 calls and 1 hour of my time!

Rant over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So are all the distributors going to simplify their proceedures, educate their call centre staff and make the whole process easier for everyone? I doubt it.

Last time I needed a distributor it took me 6 calls and 1 hour of my time!

Rant over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Educate their call centre staff??....When was the last time you spoke to an educated call centre member of staff.....lol........:dozey:

 

[Knobhead]

I’ve been lucky, only ever had to speak to a DNO once, the conversation went along the lines of:

• I need to speak to an engineer
• I can take an enquiry and pass it on to the correct department
• Do you know what you’re talking about?
• No I just pass messages on…..
• Let me speak to an engineer that will know what I’m talking about.
• I can put you through to our technical sales department
• OK I’ll give that a try
• Hello technical sales
• I explained the problem
• Nothing to do with us, but I know a man that can
• Hello systems engineering
• Thank god! I explain the problem again
• Eeerr can I call you back within 10 minutes
• We’ll be there in ½ an hour

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I’ve been lucky, only ever had to speak to a DNO once, the conversation went along the lines of:

• I need to speak to an engineer
• I can take an enquiry and pass it on to the correct department
• Do you know what you’re talking about?
• No I just pass messages on…..
• Let me speak to an engineer that will know what I’m talking about.
• I can put you through to our technical sales department
• OK I’ll give that a try
• Hello technical sales
• I explained the problem
• Nothing to do with us, but I know a man that can
• Hello systems engineering
• Thank god! I explain the problem again
• Eeerr can I call you back within 10 minutes
• We’ll be there in ½ an hour

So....in a roundabout kind of way Tony...you got there...in the end i suspect...lol........:cry_smile:

 

[sparkie710]

With everyone saying they pull it their self that’s fair enough for obvious reasons having to wait for the do which could equal lost money waiting around. But if you do please be careful make sure you wear correct ppe and look at the head before you do encase bitumen is present and you can’t get it back in. AND ALWAYS TEST!!! Can’t express it how important it is. I’m not going to lie I messed up didn’t test and couldn’t let go couldn’t scream because I had the tails in my had lucky I got yanked off and only got bruises. 100% stupidity but I never been so scared and everyone should always take great care one mishap and that’s it.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

With everyone saying they pull it their self that’s fair enough for obvious reasons having to wait for the do which could equal lost money waiting around. But if you do please be careful make sure you wear correct ppe and look at the head before you do encase bitumen is present and you can’t get it back in. AND ALWAYS TEST!!! Can’t express it how important it is. I’m not going to lie I messed up didn’t test and couldn’t let go couldn’t scream because I had the tails in my had lucky I got yanked off and only got bruises. 100% stupidity but I never been so scared and everyone should always take great care one mishap and that’s it.

Interesting point this.....should anyone pull a DNO fuse on there own?.....or should another competent person be present....just in case?....Should at least one of those be an emergency first aider?..........

 

[Knobhead]

This was a local works rule. Any electrician on an out of hours call out should be accompanied by a trained first aider if carrying out any MV switching operation.

I thought it a bit churlish to ask what happens if their both dead!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Work safely? This is getting beyond a joke!

If the DNO’s fitted isolators to EVERY installation then so be it. But they are neglecting their care of duty to my eyes. “Every installation should have a safe means of isolation”.
I’ve had to work to those rules for the last 35 years, why in the name of god are they exempt!

Rant over! :83:

I think what this is heading towards is the same system the SSE use in Scotland, where if your a member of SELECT you will be given that authorization to pull the fuse. I'm not sure how this works for them, but the system that was proposed a couple of years back, and not adopted in England/Wales was as a member of a scheme you would contact the DNO and they would issue you a set of 10 temporary seals, with associated paperwork, you would pull the fuse and after you finished you would seal it again, fill in the paperwork and send it to the DNO and they would do the rest.

I posted here a week or so back, that a DNO engineer I know said one reason the scheme was shelved was that the networks were concerned about the training that is now being done within our side of the industry and they felt that not all "electricians" were competent enough to pull their fuse. As I said then that might have just been him not being 100% right, but over the years he as not been wrong to often.

It now brings us back to if the regs are now identifying that you can only pull a fuse if your authorized to do so, where is this going.

1. Have they included it and it is just aimed at the project that is now being run by SSE and the SELECT association.
2. Does it now mean that this project is going to extend into other network providers?
3. If it is will it be ALL the schemes involved or perhaps just NICEIC and ECA
4. Will the DNO insist that entry to a scheme that is involved in this project, that an electrician will have to have training and take a short course? Which will obviously be more money for us.
5. Perhaps it is aimed at the roll over project of putting smart meters into homes?

Must mean something if the IET have included this new part to an existing regulation,

 

[mogga]

Will this mean perhaps a new CnG 2993784 4 day course costing £2000 ??
or should it be a 2day course at DNOs expence? or
should it be included within the assesment by napit Niceic ect?
If your doing your annual assesment would you have to prove contact with DNO ? IET Have opened a mine field and IMO they could be correct BUT How may guys will wait for autherisation? will do a course? will contact DNO? will still pull the fuse anyway as they always have ?
I suspect the PULL IT brigade will still pull it no matter what

 

[MarkieSparkie]

Unauthorised pulling of the DNO fuse is going to become more conspicuous post smart-meter installation because the meter technology will have a back-up supply and "phone home" with an alarm signal indicating supply interruption to the installation. The intention is that these alarm calls will be logged and investigated by DNO fraud and abstraction team.
It is vital that all interested parties support the ESC submission to the Department of Energy and Cimate Change for Smart meters to include integral isolating switches and unsealed outgoing terminals, similar to the current Siemens S2AS meters already in service in some areas. For further details follow the links below:
ESC Smart Meter Safety Challenge : Electrical Safety Council
http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/public/switched_on/Switched_On_Issue_22.pdf

 

[ezzzekiel]

which will mean more sparks working with live tails and more chances of incident

 

[malcolmsanford]

Unauthorised pulling of the DNO fuse is going to become more conspicuous post smart-meter installation because the meter technology will have a back-up supply and "phone home" with an alarm signal indicating supply interruption to the installation. The intention is that these alarm calls will be logged and investigated by DNO fraud and abstraction team.

That is a good point Mark, but who will the DNO go after, the house holder I assume, who will have paperwork that there was an Electrician doing work on the system on that day and it must have been him, so will it be the electrician they go after then?

If the house holder get's Joe from the pub or John Wayne in to do the work and there is no paper trail I assume the house holder will get the prosecution.

Will there actually be any prosecutions if the fuse was pulled unauthorized?

 

[FatBob]

Back in June I requested a fuse upgrade and isolator. Within 3 weeks out they came to fit isolator, but would not fit it until fuse was upgraded. Next turn out was also to fit isolator. Then at last to upgrade fuse. Then another visit to fit isolator, but they went to the wrong property. Its now mid September. I am still waiting for a call back to re arrange an isolator.

 

[mogga]

Im going to request isolator fitting on my house on monday see what happens

Just a wee aside the 3ph from street comes into my house then subs off to 2 neighbours properties Where would I stand if their main fuse blew while I was away on holiday and no access could be provided ? Im going to ask this on monday as well

 

[sharpener]

Im going to request isolator fitting on my house on monday see what happens

Just a wee aside the 3ph from street comes into my house then subs off to 2 neighbours properties Where would I stand if their main fuse blew while I was away on holiday and no access could be provided ? Im going to ask this on monday as well

Tell us what happened Mogga!

 

[sparkdog]

In the Nov issue of Spark it says SSE adds ELECSA contractors to its cut-out seals policy.Says you can quickly and easily de-energise by contacting SSE directly but does not say if you pull the fuse yourself or what.I might phone elecsa and see what they say.

 

[FatBob]

Back in June I requested a fuse upgrade and isolator. Within 3 weeks out they came to fit isolator, but would not fit it until fuse was upgraded. Next turn out was also to fit isolator. Then at last to upgrade fuse. Then another visit to fit isolator, but they went to the wrong property. Its now mid September. I am still waiting for a call back to re arrange an isolator.

To update this post, another date was arranged in October, but they could not guarantee how long the power would be off, as the isolation fit would be 2 visits, one to de-energise and one to fit the isolator. Two different people. As these are commercial premises, that was not acceptable. Eventually I was given a further date in November where the two works would be done at the same time. Still two people in two vans but they would arrive together!
I went back last week to complete the job and they obviously didn't arrive together... still no isolator.

In balance, I had an isolator in 24hrs at another job last week.

 

[mechelec]

Just a wee aside the 3ph from street comes into my house then subs off to 2 neighbours properties Where would I stand if their main fuse blew while I was away on holiday and no access could be provided ? Im going to ask this on monday as well[/QUOTE]

They have a right of access so would smash your door in and get the neighbours supply back on. if you are lucky they may board the door up as they leave.

Or they would have to provide a new supply to the affected property.

 

[Knobhead]

I’m going back years to my apprentice days, the company I worked for had an extensive HV/LV system out in the sticks. Farms, houses, pubs and whole villages fed from it. If a supply had to be taken across land not owned by the company an annual “way-leave” had to be paid to the landowner. The company was one of the biggest landowners in the UK.

So Mooga, try charging them rent. A snowball in hell springs to mind!

 

[Engineer54]

Im going to request isolator fitting on my house on monday see what happens

Just a wee aside the 3ph from street comes into my house then subs off to 2 neighbours properties Where would I stand if their main fuse blew while I was away on holiday and no access could be provided ? Im going to ask this on monday as well

Check the deeds to your house, i'm pretty sure there will be something in there about ''Right of Access'' or something along those lines. If not, ..then they have no right whatsoever to break into your home during your absence!! It'll all be down to the Deeds of your house!!!

 

[La Poste]

I also purchased some electrical gloves when pulling the fuse to be extra careful.

This is a really good idea.

However I've just checked the price and I'm unpleasantly surprised at how expensive they are, £70 a pair.

 

[Engineer54]

This is a really good idea.

However I've just checked the price and I'm unpleasantly surprised at how expensive they are, £70 a pair.

A good pair of Rubber gloves will suffice, Those so-called special gloves won't offer you much more in protection, and are normally so dammed thick they are basically unusable, and if anything more hazardous to you...

 

[mydigitalhome]

I think someone should put a picture of a "seal" on this thread especially for our junior members. One can go years without seeing one properly fitted on older style consumer units. However I have seen seals fitted to 17th Edition Dual RCD units but obviously on those its not so much of a problem for clients wanting a board change! Im sure others have had similar experiences to myself, perhaps I should do more CU changes. LOL

 

[La Poste]

Here you go ( sorry couldn't resist)

 

[sharpener]

In balance, I had an isolator in 24hrs at another job last week.

You were lucky then, given the experience I had installing a new CU when we moved to our present house in 2008. First up the supplier (British Gas) would not take bookings orders or answer requests of any kind until you actually move in (unlike our previous move in 1991). Then when we did order a 2-rate meter their call centre couldn't comprehend a request to fit an isolator at the same time and after two days of phoning I gave up and bought my own. When the meter fixer turned up, to begin with he would neither fit it himself nor allow me to do it while the supply was off, saying the meter tails needed upgrading from 16 to 25mm^2 even though it is only a 60A cutout. Finally he relented as he did not want to come back again later and and produced his own isolator, saying that fortunately BG unlike the other companies would allow him to increase the scope of the job on the fly and authorise it afterwards.

Next project is getting Anglian water to put CCTV down the shared drains (for which they are now responsible) to investigate a damaged and redundant vent pipe before we build a garage over the top. But I guess that belongs in another forum...

 

[Cyberprog]

I wish the government would legislate such that the DNO has to install a meter with built in switch so that within the next decade all properties will end up with a main switch.

 

[Engineer54]

Within the next 10 years?? Now you have just got to be joking there, have you any notion of how many properties there are out there, and how much it will cost these DNO's to replace those existing meters for switched meters in that short a time period?? 3 decades if your lucky would be a closer bet!! lol!!!