Certification of a rewire of kitchen lights (Part P) Please read

[thestig246]

Hi all,

i am fairly new to self certifying my own work and have a few quires. Basically i have been asked to put some lights in a kichen and bedroom above sounds simple enough right? Unfortunately after some investigation there was no proper lighting supply present at that end of the house, mr diy had wired lights off sockets and cooker points with 2 core flex

Obviously comming off this dodgy wiring is not an option and i have explained to the customer it is unsafe and the whole house needs rewiring. In the meantime i need to get some kitchen lights wired so i intented to come off a ring main and put in a fused spur to run the lights. As there is no other safe supplys to come off and the ring main seems in a reasonable condition.

As for signing this off i was hoping to complete a minor works certificate as it is just an alteration and extention of another circuit. so my question is how would I go about this??

Do i complete a ring main test or go i treat the fused spur as the new circuit im just abit confused as to what i should be doing?

Any help would be appreciated
Dan

 

[telectrix]

Do i complete a ring main test or go i treat the fused spur as the new circuit


​it's acceptable to do either, IMO.

 

[Bobster]

Hi all,

i am fairly new to self certifying my own work and have a few quires. Basically i have been asked to put some lights in a kichen and bedroom above sounds simple enough right? Unfortunately after some investigation there was no proper lighting supply present at that end of the house, mr diy had wired lights off sockets and cooker points with 2 core flex

Obviously comming off this dodgy wiring is not an option and i have explained to the customer it is unsafe and the whole house needs rewiring. In the meantime i need to get some kitchen lights wired so i intented to come off a ring main and put in a fused spur to run the lights. As there is no other safe supplys to come off and the ring main seems in a reasonable condition.

As for signing this off i was hoping to complete a minor works certificate as it is just an alteration and extention of another circuit. so my question is how would I go about this??

Do i complete a ring main test or go i treat the fused spur as the new circuit im just abit confused as to what i should be doing?

Any help would be appreciated
Dan

Because of one lighting circuit done wrong?

 

[Andy78]

Hi all,

i am fairly new to self certifying my own work and have a few quires. Basically i have been asked to put some lights in a kichen and bedroom above sounds simple enough right? Unfortunately after some investigation there was no proper lighting supply present at that end of the house, mr diy had wired lights off sockets and cooker points with 2 core flex

Obviously comming off this dodgy wiring is not an option and i have explained to the customer it is unsafe and the whole house needs rewiring. In the meantime i need to get some kitchen lights wired so i intented to come off a ring main and put in a fused spur to run the lights. As there is no other safe supplys to come off and the ring main seems in a reasonable condition.

As for signing this off i was hoping to complete a minor works certificate as it is just an alteration and extention of another circuit. so my question is how would I go about this??

Do i complete a ring main test or go i treat the fused spur as the new circuit im just abit confused as to what i should be doing?

Any help would be appreciated
Dan

This however, is completely unacceptable without having carried out a full EICR. Simply basing your recommendations on seeing a small percentage of the installation is unprofessional and potentially misleading.

 

[Buckfast]

As you have already noted defective wiring, do a full ring main test and check bonding prior to any alterations. Look at Reg 132.16.

 

[Anthony S]

This however, is completely unacceptable without having carried out a full EICR. Simply basing your recommendations on seeing a small percentage of the installation is unprofessional and potentially misleading.

The home owner won't accept a rewire is needed with out a few more opinions from Professional Electricians.

 

[D Skelton]

Blatant wind up!

 

[thestig246]

This is not a wind up why with such negative comments i asked a genuine question!

The house does need a rewire as none of the upstairs lights has any earth and some of the socket and cooker circuits are in poor condition. The customer requested that they would like it rewired at some point as its a mess. What i cant understand is an electrician had changed the consumer unit approx 6-7 years ago and none of these issues where picked up. How can you change a c/u and connect it to old wiring, i dont get it myself...

Wiring the lights off a fused spur is just temporary as like said they would like a full rewire for peace of mind, i just want to certificate what i do so i am covered.

Thanks for the help.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

This is not a wind up why with such negative comments i asked a genuine question!

The house does need a rewire as none of the upstairs lights has any earth and some of the socket and cooker circuits are in poor condition. The customer requested that they would like it rewired at some point as its a mess. What i cant understand is an electrician had changed the consumer unit approx 6-7 years ago and none of these issues where picked up. How can you change a c/u and connect it to old wiring, i dont get it myself...

Wiring the lights off a fused spur is just temporary as like said they would like a full rewire for peace of mind, i just want to certificate what i do so i am covered.

Thanks for the help.

no. Not necessarily. All lights and fittings could simply be class 2 for the rest of eternity.

also, wiring lights off a fused spur does not have to be temporary. Its fine forever.

 

[Octopus]

This is not a wind up why with such negative comments i asked a genuine question!

The house does need a rewire as none of the upstairs lights has any earth and some of the socket and cooker circuits are in poor condition. The customer requested that they would like it rewired at some point as its a mess. What i cant understand is an electrician had changed the consumer unit approx 6-7 years ago and none of these issues where picked up. How can you change a c/u and connect it to old wiring, i dont get it myself...

Wiring the lights off a fused spur is just temporary as like said they would like a full rewire for peace of mind, i just want to certificate what i do so i am covered.

Thanks for the help.

You can only really back up that statement with an EICR covering the circuits in question - so did you formally test them all? Appearances can be deceiving!

 

[thestig246]

its has lights wired off a 6mm cables which runs a multitude of things... is wired in two core 0.75mm flex and has metal fittings, such as spotlights, outside lights and strip lights ect. theres a single box with block connectors about 50mm away from the bath, it has the old style lamps holders with the wooden bases and same for the switches.

After seeing all this i don't see how it would be any benefit carrying out a condition report as its pretty clear its unacceptable, and the customer asked knows its unsafe. and wants a rewire at a later date for peace of mind.

Thanks for your help, so am i right in saying i can use a minor works to certify coming off the ring with a f/spur to run a few lights.

 

[Anthony S]

You sure the installation is ok for alterations ?

 

[R G]

No problem with the minor works cert, as long as its not for work in a special location , as long as circuit your using is compliant..

I would also say that it would be best to advise customer of the condition of the remaining installation and this would be best done on a condition report

 

[Octopus]

its has lights wired off a 6mm cables which runs a multitude of things... is wired in two core 0.75mm flex and has metal fittings, such as spotlights, outside lights and strip lights ect. theres a single box with block connectors about 50mm away from the bath, it has the old style lamps holders with the wooden bases and same for the switches.

After seeing all this i don't see how it would be any benefit carrying out a condition report as its pretty clear its unacceptable, and the customer asked knows its unsafe. and wants a rewire at a later date for peace of mind.

Thanks for your help, so am i right in saying i can use a minor works to certify coming off the ring with a f/spur to run a few lights.

Sorry mate but I disagree. If you are going to suggest rewiring you need a report to back up your statement.

Fingers crossed the homeowner will seek a 2nd opinion.

 

[thestig246]

well the downstairs ring seems in a reasonable condition, and is protected by 30ma. as im only adding and altering existing circuit. I though a minor works would suffice.

 

[Plonker 3]

No problem with the minor works cert, as long as its not for work in a special location , as long as circuit your using is compliant..

I would also say that it would be best to advise customer of the condition of the remaining installation and this would be best done on a condition report

A MWC can also be used to certify works in special locations.

 

[thestig246]

I didn't actually suggest a full rewire but i informed them what id found and they were already aware that its a mess. and asked about rewiring. I didnt realise what i was letting myself in for untill i made some inspections...

 

[Octopus]

well the downstairs ring seems in a reasonable condition, and is protected by 30ma. as im only adding and altering existing circuit. I though a minor works would suffice.

IR test results?

 

[thestig246]

IR results were above 1m ohm, obviously its not ideal but still complies with regulations as it isnt below.. All the more reason for rewire as theres clearly a breakdown somewhere.

 

[Octopus]

Above 1 meg ohms requires investigation....

Above 2 meg ohms is OK

What were the readings?

 

[thestig246]

table 2.2 in the guidance note 3 says that anything below 1meg is not acceptable. I know its far from ideal, but there's no other options currently. The readings were closer to 2meg from what i can remember.

 

[Octopus]

table 2.2 in the guidance note 3 says that anything below 1meg is not acceptable. I know its far from ideal, but there's no other options currently. The readings were closer to 2meg from what i can remember.

If you are going to do a cert you need certainty about your readings!

 

[Knobhead]

If it was 1mΩ I’d be looking for the fire extinguisher.

There’s a bit of a difference between the size of an m and an M.

 

[TJ Anderson]

table 2.2 in the guidance note 3 says that anything below 1meg is not acceptable. I know its far from ideal, but there's no other options currently. The readings were closer to 2meg from what i can remember.

How old would you say the installation is?

 

[thestig246]

I know its all very bad condition, i thought it would be an afternoons work... DOH! It varries some of it is around 10 years old (the ring i intend to come off) but the lights upstairs and in the existing kitchen has got to be 50s-or 60s. its all 2core and all the wooden backed fittings...

 

[Octopus]

We are not trying to be difficult but unless you are very careful you could end up in a big pile of poo.

When you do the work (assuming you do) you need to be crystal clear about the cert you give, the accuracy of the the readings and diligent use of the comments box...

 

[R G]

The last thing in the world you want is someone else to go in and find fault with the other areas of the property , when you have advised the lighting needs work/rewiring

 

[Guest125]

If the customer is so eager to spend the money for a lighting re-wire I am sure they can stretch to another couple of hundred quid to get the whole place tested. Seems like money well spent to me.

 

[thestig246]

They want a complete rewire at some point.

 

[thestig246]

as long as the work i do is compliant with regs and state my findings on the certificate then is that not enough. It needs completely rewiring we have low IRS no earth in cables and its just a DIY disaster. But at this moment in time rewiring is not an option due to there cash flow. So they just wanted the kitchen and the room above lights to be safe.

 

[Anthony S]

Your filling the test sheet out and signing it

 

[thestig246]

Its a complete ball ache... I just want to make sure i am covered and nothing comes back to me in the event of a fault. So i will state on the cert that the existing installation is unsatisfactory from visual inspection upon the installation.

 

[ruston]

as long as the work i do is compliant with regs and state my findings on the certificate then is that not enough. It needs completely rewiring we have low IRS no earth in cables and its just a DIY disaster. But at this moment in time rewiring is not an option due to there cash flow. So they just wanted the kitchen and the room above lights to be safe.

That's probably what they told the last electrician that pulled them out of it ten years ago.

 

[thestig246]

good point

 

[R G]

[/COLOR]

That's probably what they told the last electrician that pulled them out of it ten years ago.

Thats exactly the way you should look at most jobs , customers don't tell you very much if they can help it , only what suits them ....

 

[Leesparkykent]

If you are not happy with the state of the installation and the customer isn't willing to pay to bring the circuits that they want you to work on up to scratch then you need to make a decision to do the job or not in the 1st place. I know what Option I would choose as at the end of the day it's your name on the cert.

 

[ruston]

Thats exactly the way you should look at most jobs , customers don't tell you very much if they can help it , only what suits them ....

Some are worse than others................. usually Mr & Mrs cannybody are salt of the earth, now takeaways and the like..............." no, no one has touched it........... then it worked before you touched it . Watch them all lol.

 

[thestig246]

yeah your right there, its not something i had thought about to be honest. Im new to certifying my own work and stuff and its all a learning curve, including some of the tales the customers tell you... lol If i had known id have never got involved, the problem is its a neighbour down the road and they came knocking at the door so i could hardly say no at the time.

Its that old saying its easier to say yes than no...

 

[ruston]

yeah your right there, its not something i had thought about to be honest. Im new to certifying my own work and stuff and its all a learning curve, including some of the tales the customers tell you... lol If i had known id have never got involved, the problem is its a neighbour down the road and they came knocking at the door so i could hardly say no at the time.

Its that old saying its easier to say yes than no...

Aye , just take care , and as others have said watch your back.

Tell them what is required to make it safe. It is up to them whether they listen. You can't do any more than that, you can't make them have work done.

 

[not clever]

Just give them a price for splitting the tails adding a small cu & run in a new circuit for your lights + MEB's.
You could also offer to undertake an EICR of the existing installation, do it at a cheaper price while undertaking the above.