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Discuss any one else finding it hard with the new regs in the Commercial Electrical Advice area at ElectriciansForums.net

A

adamh

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basically i turn up to a job and as far as i can tell every circuit i touch i have to fit an rcd! I do bathrooms for a plumber so usually 4 downlighters a fan and possibly a s/w fused spur for a summer element in a towel rail. i havent done my 17th yet but from what i understand isnt the bathroom supposed to be on its own circuit/s? luckily the customer wants a pir doing and im going to advise a dual rcd board so i will be protecting these circuits with an rcd (old board is just a 10way board with an 80amp main switch)
 
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E

EasyFox

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  • #2
basically i turn up to a job and as far as i can tell every circuit i touch i have to fit an rcd!
Depends what you are going to do to the circuits in question.

I do bathrooms for a plumber so usually 4 downlighters a fan and possibly a s/w fused spur for a summer element in a towel rail.
Yes rcd's required if you are extending circuits.
Easiest option rcd fused spur outside the bathroom for lighting & fan
Same for towel rail taken off ring.


i havent done my 17th yet but from what i understand isnt the bathroom supposed to be on its own circuit/s?
No can be on same lighting circuit as any other rooms but now has to be rcd'd if new install or extending circuit.

luckily the customer wants a pir doing and im going to advise a dual rcd board so i will be protecting these circuits with an rcd (old board is just a 10way board with an 80amp main switch)
What make is the cu? can you not use rcbo's? what size is the service cutout fuse?
 
C

Cirrus

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  • #3
It is very awkward. With each kitchen refurb I do I am also required to install a SELV fan in bathroom. Used to take about an hour on 16th ed but now, they are saying that we have to break into the ring (means lifting floorboards), surface trunking up to door frame to then mount the transformer and isolator. This is potentially half a days work now and all for the same price of £27!! I don't think so.
 
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London Luke

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
I spoke to a few mates in the trade and they are just saying "-------s " to the regs, they will only carry out "light" domestic work etc and dont give a monkeys anymore about silly regs, They are losing so much money through having to tell customers "it has to be done this way"

I say good luck to them
 
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greekislandlover

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
I think LondonLuke is making a valid point. I think the new regs will inevitably have the effect of causing customers and sparks to go for doing jobs that are not to regs, and not signed off either. I know this is bad, and not the intended effect of the new regs, but I think few would deny that this is what will inevitably happen.

I've walked away from a consumer unit change this week because the customer is unwilling to have the work required to bring the house up to 17th done. Although I think that a consumer unit change is required if only to provide some form of reasonable protection, I'm not willing to go against the regs. There are two likely effects of my decision. 1, they won't have it done and continue living without protection other than some old rewirable fuses. Or more likely - 2, they will find someone else willing to just change the board and not certify it. And there are plenty that will do this.

Most of our work is for the local council, and even they are questioning everything we do differently, and exerting pressure to take short cuts that would mean non-compliance.

I think that customers are now much more likely to go with dodgy sparkies, or do it themselves than to employ a proper tradesman who will do the job properly than ever before.
 
L

London Luke

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
This world has gone "tits up" And i need to feed myself and pay my bills. "safety" has "*uckall" to do with the new regs. Its about silly people bringing out new rules every bloody wednesday and the trade and customers go nuts. Remember the customers need to eat and provide for their kids. And its not getting any easier.

there is a huge difference between "illegal" and "dangerous" and one my mates would never cross.

and lets be honest just how many fatal accidents are there these days ???? Bugger all really. The Government has robbed us. So many people will turn to cheaper labour due to the foreign workers etc. We have to stand up and fight for ourselves.

you know...when i was a kid i fell out of a tree, bloody hurt myself i can tell you. But i lived and i never had a "Health and safety " officer come and tell my folks i was not able to climb trees without the following


1. On site safety officer
2. First aider
3. Hi viz jacket
4. Full climbing gear
5. Some daft sod holding the bottom of a tree just in case it "moved"
6.3rd party insurance



I will earn its my right to. But i wont be fooled into all this crap that the 17th has produced. It was designed by idiots who have no idea of "earning a Living"

And as "greek" said... the clients dont give a "monkeys"
 
S

Shakey

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Am i missing something here?

what the hell has the 17th edtiion got to do with anything?

Why are you 'walking away from a CU change'?

If it needs changing, it needs changing!

And now the 17th is in, you would probably have to fit a different CU that had twin RCCB's instead of one

well woop-de-doo

what does it put on the price of the job? 30 quid? forty?

for fu** sake!!!!!!

And they are hardly brining out new rules 'every Wednesday'. Its been over 15 years since the last edition of the regs!

You climbing trees analogy is sh**e as well

Dont get me wrong, I am utterly and wholheartedly opposed to the health and safety police. I had a lad the other day who said he was 'not allowed' to stand on the top step of a step ladder. Why? would he be arrested?

And most of the regs is bollo**s as well. 10mm main bonding? why? Presumably someone had 6 mm which melted under fault conditions? what a crock! Double pole isolator for a cooker? Isolation for maintenance? No-one has ever (A) turned off the isolator to clean the oven and (B) received a fatal electric shock because they failed to carry out (A)

However, these were all in the 16th edition - did you follow those rules i wonder?

Lets go bottom line here:-

A. Its here, it aint gonna go away - stop your sniveling and whinging, start acting like the qualified tradesmen that you puport to be and GET ON WITH IT

B. Its the customers job to whinge about the cost, and its its your job as the expert to explain to them why things have to be done the way they have to be done - even if you dont neccasarily agree with the rules

C. Accept that rules are rules. Did you comply with the 16th edition? Did you comply with the 15th edition? Yes? Then what the hell makes you think the 17th is any different? If you are an installation electrician, then the rules governing your trade are laid down in BS7671. Plumbers and gas fitters have their rules. Lawyers and doctors have thier rules. Everyone, in every line of work has freekin rules. And BS7671 lays down your rules. If you are an electrician you follow your rules. And if you dont, you are NOT an electrician, just another cowboy.

D. I remember when the 16th came out- whinge, whine, moan, then get on with it. You've whinged, whined and moaned, and soon you will pull you boots up, accept the rules will not be changed for another 15-20 years and start acting like proffesional tradesman instead of pouting kids who lost their dummys.
 
A

adamh

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
thanks for the replies every1. the point i was making was the cost of having a few downlighters and a sfcu compared to what it used to be on the 16th. because they have a 10 way board thats is full i dont see the point in putting 2 rcbos in for the upstairs ring and lighting circuit which for the cost is going to leave the downstairs ring still with no rcd and the board with no spare ways and like ppl have said i think there will be a lot more ppl using cowboys
 
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greekislandlover

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
I don't wish to talk out of turn here, but I do rather resent the tone of Shakey's post.

The reason I walked away from the CU change is that there was too much else that was wrong with the installation that the customer wasn't willing to pay for. I would have done the same under 16th, and I still feel it was the right, and responsible thing to do. However I have to say that with the new regulations I'm more likely to turn this work down. I can't afford to really, but at the same time it's what the NICEIC and our public liability insurance companies would want us to do. It's not an easy decision, but in order to cover my own a***, it seemed the better decision to make. Sorry if I made the wrong decision, or am appearing to whine.

FYI, the customer now has a new CU. It was fitted by one of our Baltic (or Eastern European) brothers over here for the summer, living in a van, doing cash in hand jobs without public liability insurance, registration with NICEIC (or similar) and certainly no tax paid. If someone can explain how this benefits us as a profession, the customer in the long term and the Inland Revenue then go ahead - I'm listening.

I know the 17th isn't going away. Nor should it. But we have to accept the reality that it's likely to cause an increase in DIY electrical jobs including consumer unit sales at B&Q, cowboys will profit and it's as much of a pigs ear as Part P. We aren't going to benefit.
 
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Cirrus

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
Some good points but it isn't the advent of the 17th that has caused the proliferation of cowboys, rather the way that Part P has forced the trade 'underground'. I am finding that yes, people want things done cheaper and cheaper BUT when I tell them that at the end of my work it is all tested and certified, their little peepers light up. The majority want a professional job doing and one that is above board. I think it is down to how and what you explain to the customer as Shakey says. Remember - people will always get fred blogs from the pub to do something on the side for them and you will NEVER stop that. Just be firm, pride yourself in a professional job and most importantly EXPLAIN things to your customers. It is all too easy to talk jargon and confuse them. There is a saying that bullsh*t baffles brains but remember that the customer wants you to put things across in a non technical way. Open a dialogue and you will be surprised how much more work you will win but you can't win em all.;)
 
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EasyFox

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
Cirrus your last post is bang on mate, it's all down to how you explain in laymans terms what is needed to the customer & like you say when you mention testing & certificates their eyes light up.

It's amazing how many people I'm now getting on the phone asking if I can issue a certificate for some work they've had done by someone else, I must be averaging 2 a week at the moment, so i suspect that the local BCO is on the case & chasing uncertified work.

The 17th edition........why all the fuss, when you look at it what has actually changed?

(1) RCD's well most sparks I know have been fitting them as matter of course for socket outlet / shower circuits for the past 4-5 years even though they weren't a requirement in some cases going by 16th, but they went in all the same. (so no real change there).

(2) change to testing. again you should have been doing this anyway, the only bit thats changed are various values.

(3) Supplimentary bonding. Couldnt be better for the muppets that didnt understand it, put in equipotential bonds & bin the supplimentary.

(4) Changed layout of the regs (heard lads whine about this at the counter). well if you cant find anything in the regs you need a new line of work, the numbering system is simple to follow.

(5) EEBADS to ADS why complain it's a name change, more of a name drop really.

(6)Direct contact to basic protection. couldnt be simpler, what is the most basic protection in the electrical world "INSULATION" what does insulation stop you doing, thats right comming in to direct contact with live parts.

(7) Indirect contact to Fault protection. self explanitory now

(8) Bathroom zones. we are now down to 2, again something to make the life of electricians a little easier.

(9) New sections in the regs. a good thing it tightens up & give some clarity on such things as ufh, pv systems & of course dodgems :D amongst other things.

What I'm trying to say is, yes there are lots of changes but they do seem to be in the favour of making our lives as electricians a little easier, but some of the changes you will have already put into practice long before the regs were changed. Why because if enough people do things a certain way it will become the norm (rcd's on sockets for example).

Extra cost for doing work to 17th :confused:. What extra cost (unless you are running everything in earthed galv tube) if you are paying over the odds for 17th cu's or rcbo's might I advise you to shop around, I'm getting 17th cu's for pretty much the same cost as i was paying for a splitload unit.
I make a point of explaining to customers that they will be getting a quality job to the latest regulations by a qualified/approved electrician, they then (to date) have no problems with the quotes.

CU changes are all ways precceded (16th & now 17th) by a quick test of existing circuits so any potential problems come to light then, again a truthful explanation in terms the customer can understand does the trick (I've got 2 next week that have faults on rings that I have to repair before cu changes..cost to customer £35ph + parts).

A. Its here, it aint gonna go away - stop your sniveling and whinging, start acting like the qualified tradesmen that you puport to be and GET ON WITH IT

B. Its the customers job to whinge about the cost, and its its your job as the expert to explain to them why things have to be done the way they have to be done - even if you dont neccasarily agree with the rules

C. Accept that rules are rules. Did you comply with the 16th edition? Did you comply with the 15th edition? Yes? Then what the hell makes you think the 17th is any different? If you are an installation electrician, then the rules governing your trade are laid down in BS7671. Plumbers and gas fitters have their rules. Lawyers and doctors have thier rules. Everyone, in every line of work has freekin rules. And BS7671 lays down your rules. If you are an electrician you follow your rules. And if you dont, you are NOT an electrician, just another cowboy.

D. I remember when the 16th came out- whinge, whine, moan, then get on with it. You've whinged, whined and moaned, and soon you will pull you boots up, accept the rules will not be changed for another 15-20 years and start acting like proffesional tradesman instead of pouting kids who lost their dummys
Couldn't agree more Shakey me old mucca.

Walking from a cu change :(:confused: give a price for all the work needed...if they dont take the quote so what you've lost nothing.
 
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Cirrus

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
Well put Easyfox and thanks for posting the bullet points;)
 
J

jibtech

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
i agree im a tradesman not a sales marvel and its so hard to explain to customers without them losing you and going into that mode of oh he is on the blag hes trying to rip me off

but you have to emphasise the positives that its done all proper and certified the customer then makes the choice

a side question here when it comes to getting house insurance do you need to provide an up to date test sheet?
 
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London Luke

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
and yet i can get brakes changed on a 150mph car by someone with no training !

i see both sides of the coin. The fact is some clients will never listen to anything .They just believe we rip them off etc.And i still wonder how my local Trade place can be selling CB etc to people with no idea etc yet still seem to be earning a lot of money each week.
The local Gas supply guy has a sign on his door saying that without valid trade card etc he refuses to sell stuff. This way he plays his part in keeping those that helped him build his business etc keep themselves in business.


Its when you add to a freshly decorated house etc and then you have to explain that you need to run and fit lots of little boxes etc outside the bathrooms etc .The clients dont like it .

I have noticed far more just say" get it done " and forget the rules and certs. They hate been bullied by"big brother'

it might not be right etc...but its the other side of the coin
 
W

wattsup

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
When I say 'quote shower point' xxx£ the absolute vast majority do not know current legislation. It is no good quoting it, they just shrug shoulders...yeah//yeah//yeah attitude, you can read their mind...Mm this guy is bull****ting. Most want to know you are real electrician and thats all they want to know.

I never bother with the bumph unless they ask, 90% do not ask.

That's the public side.

If quoting sub-contract for builders, property developers they always ask, which is understandable. These are usually the worst payers, and take for ages paying, so they get the bumph, and a 40% mark-up, get about 20% of these jobs, and don't want it any other way. I have a few good one's whom are good to me, but the tyre kickers I don't need
 
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