Cat 5e cables lashed across ceiling

[ForkEnigma]

Doing a commercial EICR, the original electrical is very good, 25 years old, all trunking and conduits, with klicks on tube near as dam it above the light. (This is what I was brought up on) Anyway cat5 or whatever have been lashed across the ceiling no support or anything. Is this now deemed a code 3 as no fire supports have been used?

 

[telectrix]

don't think cat5 cables come under your remit , doing a EICR, unless run in with LV cables and/or posing a hazard/danger.

 

[snowhead]

Are these Cat 5 run above the false ceiling, consisting of a metal grid and drop in / clip in tiles?

 

[ForkEnigma]

don't think cat5 cables come under your remit , doing a EICR, unless run in with LV cables and/or posing a hazard/danger.

Yeah tough one as an observation. As 2 fire personnel have died by being entangled in cables, thus bringing in new regs.

 

[snowhead]

As 2 fire personnel have died by being entangled in cables, thus bringing in new regs.

That's from cables fixed below a ceiling.
If it's a false ceiling, they'll get tripped up by fallen ceiling tiles and grid before they get entangled in Cat 5.

 

[davesparks]

That's from cables fixed below a ceiling.
If it's a false ceiling, they'll get tripped up by fallen ceiling tiles and grid before they get entangled in Cat 5.

The problem with this is establishing whether the ceiling is suitable for taking the weight of the cables, or whether it would fall sooner than it might normally due to the weight of the cables.

In this case its cat5 and unlikely to cause an issue for the ceiling.

But when you consider many ceiling grids seem to be held up by the minimum number of tiny/dodgy fixings possible then a bunch of cat5s may affect it.

 

[Ian1981]

It’s important to remember the voltage bands that bs7671 deals with, so yes ELV cables will come under bs7671 and are code able under bs7671.

 

[davesparks]

It’s important to remember the voltage bands that bs7671 deals with, so yes ELV cables will come under bs7671 and are code able under bs7671.

It's a discussion I've had many times with installers of ELV cabling such as burglar alarm installers, CCTV installers and data monkeys.
They seem to be under the misguided belief that they are exempt from BS7671 requirements and best practice. Oddly this goes hand in hand with the misguided belief that I will agree to run their cables for them, free of charge, or accept their terrible work as a finished job.

 

[Ian1981]

It's a discussion I've had many times with installers of ELV cabling such as burglar alarm installers, CCTV installers and data monkeys.
They seem to be under the misguided belief that they are exempt from BS7671 requirements and best practice. Oddly this goes hand in hand with the misguided belief that I will agree to run their cables for them, free of charge, or accept their terrible work as a finished job.

Yes there’s been many a time where we have installed 3 compartment dado trunking, only to find that they have run their data cables in the same compartment as the LV cables, ? ends.

 

[davesparks]

Yes there’s been many a time where we have installed 3 compartment dado trunking, only to find that they have run their data cables in the same compartment as the LV cables, ? ends.

At least they managed to get inside the trunking!
I've had one where burglar alarm cables were cable tied to the outside of steel conduit which had the burglar alarm cables from the original install inside it, all they had to do was connect to the existing cables and not run any new cable.

 

[pirate]

If you've ever been bound with CAT5 cable you will know it's not easy to escape...just saying!
Seriously though, those cables are going to be a risk in a fire, from an entanglement perspective. Some have a plastic core, some have a kevlar string...I suppose the latter may cause a problem?

 

[GMES]

The problem with this is establishing whether the ceiling is suitable for taking the weight of the cables, or whether it would fall sooner than it might normally due to the weight of the cables.

In this case its cat5 and unlikely to cause an issue for the ceiling.

But when you consider many ceiling grids seem to be held up by the minimum number of tiny/dodgy fixings possible then a bunch of cat5s may affect it.

This is the one to consider for me. I've seen some shambolic ceilings installed in shop refits where a good gust of wind would bring some of them down.

 

[Simon47]

Oddly this goes hand in hand with the misguided belief that I will agree to run their cables for them, free of charge, or accept their terrible work as a finished job.

A few data cabling jobs I've done have involved the sparkies either installing the containment, or in some cases pulling the cables as well - as part of the contract so they (should) have included it in their costings. Unfortunately, these can be some of the most frustrating as a remarkable number of sparkies seem to have no clue.

One job, the sparky was moaning about how easy it must be when someone else has done all the work for them. This same sparky had installed 2 compartment trunking and taken the bigger compartment for his 2off RFCs so I had to squeeze 24off Cat5e cables into the tiny side section - and didn't have room for the phone cable that was also supposed to go through it. The trunking was (IIRC) Rehau and shaped like 3 section dado with bevelled top and bottom - except the bottom side was integral to the main trunking so without any covers fitted it would look a bit like a J in section. This made the central and lower compartments into one big one unless a separator was fitted.
He was 110% adamant that a) it wasn't possible to segment off part of the big section (it was, manufacturer does a divider for it but I didn't have time in the job to order it and wait for it to arrive), and b) that electrically he couldn't use the smaller section as then the cables wouldn't be insulated. Yes, you read that correctly, he genuinely believed that the plastic bit between upper and central sections would only insulate one way

On another job, the cowboys left the cables all sorts of lengths. One went out of the room, down the corridor to the other end of the building and half way back again. At the other extreme, one had just 6" sticking out of the wall and somehow I was supposed to another couple of yards to get it into the free standing cabinet and terminate it

And another job they gave the data cabling to the apprentice who'd clearly been given no instruction on how to handle cables (of any type). When the cable snagged in the box, he'd just pull harder till the knot came out. The cables were all sorts of lengths. The numbering was ... a bit unreliable. And he just ----ed all the cables (over 100 of them) in a big heap of spaghetti which took me a day to unravel.

But that's the bad jobs. I've also done jobs where the sparky has been clued up and we've been able to work together to good effect. Sadly those jobs were always the minority.

 

[UNG]

It’s important to remember the voltage bands that bs7671 deals with, so yes ELV cables will come under bs7671 and are code able under bs7671.

So what does fibre come under as it certainly can't carry any voltage

 

[Ian1981]

So what does fibre come under as it certainly can't carry any voltage

The cable in question is cat5 however I would certainly highlight the issue regardless if it had the potential to cause danger through entanglement.

 

[Welchyboy1]

Likely the same problem in just about every commercial office space with a suspended ceiling
A c3 for me maybe not in an escape route but
Do suspended ceiling tiles carry any form of fire rating?, i doubt it

I see the results of a garage fire where two sets of aluminium stepladders were melted into a little puddle on the floor in no time
So i doubt a ceiling grid would fare any better

 

[James]

Likely the same problem in just about every commercial office space with a suspended ceiling
A c3 for me maybe not in an escape route but
Do suspended ceiling tiles carry any form of fire rating?, i doubt it

I see the results of a garage fire where two sets of aluminium stepladders were melted into a little puddle on the floor in no time
So i doubt a ceiling grid would fare any better

Suspended ceilings are often used as a fire barrier.

 

[westward10]

Suspended ceilings are often used as a fire barrier.

Suspended ceilings are rarely used as a fire barrier. It would be very rare to find a fire rated one as they are expensive to install, have to be certified and maintained. Suspended ceilings are normally for aesthetic reasons and the upper ceiling if necessary would be a fire barrier.

 

[Strima]

521.10.202 Wiring systems shall be supported such that they will not be liable to premature collapse in the event of a fire.

Part 2 definitions - Wiring system. An assembly made up of cable or busbars and parts which secure it and, if necessary, enclose the cables and busbars.

Dictionary - Cable

2. an insulated wire or wires having a protective casing and used for transmitting electricity or telecommunication signals.

So that pretty much covers all cables used for power or data transmission. Good luck to any data monkey trying to wiggle out of that one in court.