G
Glen Powell
I think the biggest reason AC won over DC was the factor that DC is more lethal, but I not looked into the true reasons lol
T
The Solar King
I love the wishful thinking and positivity of this thread.
I do not have to hand the figures for the predicted size of the EV market for this year, but more importantly 2013 -2015. It is not big and should be viewed as a niche.
Do not overook the fact the new car market is very depressed and this will in itself depress the potential for EV. There will be further consolidation and change in the manufacturing base in an effort to control costs.
There was also an interesting article in either the Telegraph or Sunday times comparing the whole life costs of a Ford focus, a Vauxall Ampera, a Nissan Leaf and some other traditional alternatives. Needless to say the Focus was considerably cheaper.
Currently this is the rub. Despite the number of EV launches this year, the improvements in the efficiency of internal combustion engined vehicles pushes back the point of parity.
I really want to see a thriving EV sector supporting secondary and tertiary jobs and activity. There will be opportunities, but not on the scale you may wish for.
As I have already said proceed with caution.
I do not have to hand the figures for the predicted size of the EV market for this year, but more importantly 2013 -2015. It is not big and should be viewed as a niche.
Do not overook the fact the new car market is very depressed and this will in itself depress the potential for EV. There will be further consolidation and change in the manufacturing base in an effort to control costs.
There was also an interesting article in either the Telegraph or Sunday times comparing the whole life costs of a Ford focus, a Vauxall Ampera, a Nissan Leaf and some other traditional alternatives. Needless to say the Focus was considerably cheaper.
Currently this is the rub. Despite the number of EV launches this year, the improvements in the efficiency of internal combustion engined vehicles pushes back the point of parity.
I really want to see a thriving EV sector supporting secondary and tertiary jobs and activity. There will be opportunities, but not on the scale you may wish for.
As I have already said proceed with caution.
G
Glen Powell
I totally agree and when we joined the PV industry over 10 years ago the same sentiments were about, however we took the plunge and all was good in the end.
I would say do not depend on it as a sole income as there are many more sectors to explore such as micro wind as I have seen a large swing that way from our side on investment and domestic.
I would say do not depend on it as a sole income as there are many more sectors to explore such as micro wind as I have seen a large swing that way from our side on investment and domestic.
T
The Solar King
Yes, micro wind looks exciting. I hope you responded vigorously to the phase 2b FITs consulation that proposes banding for small scale wind which will effectively kill it.
As Dorothy Parker said 'this is what happens when you put all your eggs in one *******'. Ours being DECC.
I've been auto-censored!!! She was using the word for one born out of wedlock.
As Dorothy Parker said 'this is what happens when you put all your eggs in one *******'. Ours being DECC.
I've been auto-censored!!! She was using the word for one born out of wedlock.
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G
Glen Powell
Our company is fighting hard to improve the longevity of micro wind, this has a future with the improved performance over the years. The govenment opened one gate in december by relaxing the planning rules for micro wind only to try and slap us in the face with FIT reductions.
However commercial Biomass is a good route also along with commercial LED lighting, however to save hijacking the topic matter. If a mixture of technologies are part of the future business plans of companies then this could give further jobs in the future.
However commercial Biomass is a good route also along with commercial LED lighting, however to save hijacking the topic matter. If a mixture of technologies are part of the future business plans of companies then this could give further jobs in the future.
B
BBS
Hi from France,
Working yet on EV charging points, hoping manufacturers will agree on plug types...
Here is an example of PV+EV on my soft :
Working yet on EV charging points, hoping manufacturers will agree on plug types...
Here is an example of PV+EV on my soft :
M
moggy1968
If you want to save the planet buy a diesel panda.
EV are very poluting, not because of the charging, but because of the batteries manufacture and destruction.
Even a conventional car produces most of it's emissions in it's manufacture and destruction. Because of the limmited lifespan of batteries and their costs EVs will probably become economically non viable and scrapped much sooner than traditional vehicles, compunding the problem.
The depreciation is also crushing because of the cost of batteries and their limited lifespan (although battery leasing may overcome this, but only if you have a way of evaluating the charge retaining property of the battery, who wants to lease a battery with only 25% charge capacity left)
personally I don't think EV is th answer. Something like hydrogen fuel cells is more viable. However, consider the implications on the climate of all that water vapour being released, it could be a disaster.
As above, I think a variety of technologies is the answer. Bio Diesel, hydrogen fuel cells, PV, wind, etc etc
EV are very poluting, not because of the charging, but because of the batteries manufacture and destruction.
Even a conventional car produces most of it's emissions in it's manufacture and destruction. Because of the limmited lifespan of batteries and their costs EVs will probably become economically non viable and scrapped much sooner than traditional vehicles, compunding the problem.
The depreciation is also crushing because of the cost of batteries and their limited lifespan (although battery leasing may overcome this, but only if you have a way of evaluating the charge retaining property of the battery, who wants to lease a battery with only 25% charge capacity left)
personally I don't think EV is th answer. Something like hydrogen fuel cells is more viable. However, consider the implications on the climate of all that water vapour being released, it could be a disaster.
As above, I think a variety of technologies is the answer. Bio Diesel, hydrogen fuel cells, PV, wind, etc etc
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F
Fin170
Suggesting hydrogen fuel cells after calling electric vehicles bad for the environment is very ironic, save my fingers
wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_car#Criticism
Don't forget to factor in the infrastructure required for a 'hydrogen economy'
Even current gen electric cars are cleaner than they're combustion counter parts, central generation being a much more efficient way of producing energy than hundreds of inefficient small generators. Add in all those cancers that diesel in particular causes it's a another one up for the EV.
Manufacture? The Nissan leaf is made in sunderland and the tesla roadster is manufactured in Hethel,UK. It's also well known that a electric motor will outlast a combustion engine
Disposal? We recycle near valueless lead acid batteries, do you think we would just chuck Lithium cells into landfill? Also consider 10 years of fluids, lubricants, plugs, filters etc that a electric vehicle does not require.
I personally hope for a future of electric vehicles, the LFTR and less Jeremy clarkson
wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_car#Criticism
Don't forget to factor in the infrastructure required for a 'hydrogen economy'
Even current gen electric cars are cleaner than they're combustion counter parts, central generation being a much more efficient way of producing energy than hundreds of inefficient small generators. Add in all those cancers that diesel in particular causes it's a another one up for the EV.
Manufacture? The Nissan leaf is made in sunderland and the tesla roadster is manufactured in Hethel,UK. It's also well known that a electric motor will outlast a combustion engine
Disposal? We recycle near valueless lead acid batteries, do you think we would just chuck Lithium cells into landfill? Also consider 10 years of fluids, lubricants, plugs, filters etc that a electric vehicle does not require.
I personally hope for a future of electric vehicles, the LFTR and less Jeremy clarkson
M
moggy1968
Your taking a simplistic view of electric vehicles as beloved by the press by looking at just 'tailpipe emissions' when in fact that is the least poluting part of the equation. You need to also consider the manufacture and destruction of the vehicle. When you consider that then electric cars are actually more poluting than some of the modern diesels (such as the panda). A Pious (yes, I know thats a hybrid), for example, has the same carbon footprint over it's lifetime as a landrover discovery.
While the vehicles may be made in this country the batteries aren't, they're the poluting part, and the raw materials for them don't come from here either. The manufacture and transportation of batteries involves shipping them around the world. The mining of the raw materials also has it's impact and is usually in a different country to where the batteries are made.. Lets not forget there is also a finite quantity of those raw materials, same as fossil fuels so your moving the problem rather than solving it.
The fact that an electric motor may outlast a petrol one is irrelevant, as the cost of batteries will mean the vehicle is an economic write off after 8-10 years anyway. Most cars aren't scrapped because their engines fail anyway so engine life is an irrelevance.
My information on Hydrogen fuel cells comes from a physist who is one of the top 5 in the world in his field, currently alternative powerplants for submarines, rather than an unsubstantiated wikedpedia article, but as I said, Hydrogen cells aren't without their problems. Cost being one which isn't a factor in submarines!! But then, only a few years ago electric cars were prohibitively expensive. Currently the technology also limits the take up, but then that also applied to electric cars only 5 years ago.
Many of the products in batteries are also highly carcinogenic and their manufacture is a dirty process, which is why it tends to happen in countries with rather less environmental controls than ours.Modern diesel engines are actually extremely clean. IN any large city in the UK the air a modern diesel sucks in through it's air intake is dirtier than the air that comes out of it's exhaust.
The battery recycling process also has a carbon cost.
An electric vehicle will also require maintainance.
The car industry is rather unlikely to develop a car that last 20 years with no maintainance. Their shareholders wouldn't like it!
Don't forget to factor in the cost of an 'electric' economy!
I still believe a mix of technologies, and therefore emissions, is the answer, including Bio Fuel and methane based fuels. Natural gas looks interesting.
But then, if the experts can't agree what chance have we got!!
Interesting discussion though!:smart:
While the vehicles may be made in this country the batteries aren't, they're the poluting part, and the raw materials for them don't come from here either. The manufacture and transportation of batteries involves shipping them around the world. The mining of the raw materials also has it's impact and is usually in a different country to where the batteries are made.. Lets not forget there is also a finite quantity of those raw materials, same as fossil fuels so your moving the problem rather than solving it.
The fact that an electric motor may outlast a petrol one is irrelevant, as the cost of batteries will mean the vehicle is an economic write off after 8-10 years anyway. Most cars aren't scrapped because their engines fail anyway so engine life is an irrelevance.
My information on Hydrogen fuel cells comes from a physist who is one of the top 5 in the world in his field, currently alternative powerplants for submarines, rather than an unsubstantiated wikedpedia article, but as I said, Hydrogen cells aren't without their problems. Cost being one which isn't a factor in submarines!! But then, only a few years ago electric cars were prohibitively expensive. Currently the technology also limits the take up, but then that also applied to electric cars only 5 years ago.
Many of the products in batteries are also highly carcinogenic and their manufacture is a dirty process, which is why it tends to happen in countries with rather less environmental controls than ours.Modern diesel engines are actually extremely clean. IN any large city in the UK the air a modern diesel sucks in through it's air intake is dirtier than the air that comes out of it's exhaust.
The battery recycling process also has a carbon cost.
An electric vehicle will also require maintainance.
The car industry is rather unlikely to develop a car that last 20 years with no maintainance. Their shareholders wouldn't like it!
Don't forget to factor in the cost of an 'electric' economy!
I still believe a mix of technologies, and therefore emissions, is the answer, including Bio Fuel and methane based fuels. Natural gas looks interesting.
But then, if the experts can't agree what chance have we got!!
Interesting discussion though!:smart:
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G
Glen Powell
The carbon footprint of transportation from one country to the other? has anybody actually done a calculation on this? I have and the results were more in favour of import than you think.
My carbon footprint calculation was based on the fuel used to ship the products from 1 port to another compared to getting raw materials to make the product in the UK.
The carbon footprint to make a new building compared to using an existing building should need no explanation, the fuel used to transport a product is difficult to calculate, do you base it on weight, size, shape, or mass. basing it on size would be beneficial to a container load of beads as each one would have very little CO2 to transport. based on a containers having about 400 to 500 products in it (totally against the calcs as most containers will have 1000's) and the amount of containers on a ship from China you would find that the product could be less than 500g/Co2 for transportation.
OK so China have the worst power system and smog is common place in nearly all the Areas I have visited, however, buy raw materials from all the different places in europe and put them into product in the UK then we are easily upto 4kg/Co2 for a product because most of it is on smaller vehicles from different destinations.
One thing China has got right is if you sell PV products then all the PV factories are together, if you sell LED then all the LED factories are together and so on.
My carbon footprint calculation was based on the fuel used to ship the products from 1 port to another compared to getting raw materials to make the product in the UK.
The carbon footprint to make a new building compared to using an existing building should need no explanation, the fuel used to transport a product is difficult to calculate, do you base it on weight, size, shape, or mass. basing it on size would be beneficial to a container load of beads as each one would have very little CO2 to transport. based on a containers having about 400 to 500 products in it (totally against the calcs as most containers will have 1000's) and the amount of containers on a ship from China you would find that the product could be less than 500g/Co2 for transportation.
OK so China have the worst power system and smog is common place in nearly all the Areas I have visited, however, buy raw materials from all the different places in europe and put them into product in the UK then we are easily upto 4kg/Co2 for a product because most of it is on smaller vehicles from different destinations.
One thing China has got right is if you sell PV products then all the PV factories are together, if you sell LED then all the LED factories are together and so on.
E
Earthstore
Watched a program on the TV the other night, and they had an electric car that was built in 1914, and they were driving it, so the technology is not new...
F
Fin170
Considering the amount of repairs the average land rover product needs to run longer than a week I'd love to see how that balances out on C02 emissions :wink5:
And shipping, manufacture and disposal (everything is recycled when breaking cars one way or another) energy use must run parallel to their combustion equivalents. I'll give you manufacture of the batteries is dirty (although it's getting much cleaner, Photovoltaics are in the same boat) but i doubt 10 years of oil (~100 litres?) and service parts is any better. Don't forget a electric power train has considerably fewer parts to make and replace in the first place
In my examples the leaf and roadster's cells are both made in Japan (mostly nuclear, clean) and I've read plenty on what they intend to do with them when their lives are up (varying using them for back up power supplies to being fully broken down and re-used). Everyone seems to imply they're dropping these straight in the skip at the end of the batteries life cycle. The way i see it after you've changed the pack you've got practically a new car, the same period on a petrol car you would be thinking about gaskets, exhaust components, clutches etc over the next 10 years
Biofuels can be a short term solution but I'd be concerned with using arable land to grow fuel. It won't make the fuel any cheaper and food prices are already considered to be getting too expensive too quickly. There is also the issue of some modern engines don't like it.The modified algae grown in Vats method sounds a good idea though
And shipping, manufacture and disposal (everything is recycled when breaking cars one way or another) energy use must run parallel to their combustion equivalents. I'll give you manufacture of the batteries is dirty (although it's getting much cleaner, Photovoltaics are in the same boat) but i doubt 10 years of oil (~100 litres?) and service parts is any better. Don't forget a electric power train has considerably fewer parts to make and replace in the first place
In my examples the leaf and roadster's cells are both made in Japan (mostly nuclear, clean) and I've read plenty on what they intend to do with them when their lives are up (varying using them for back up power supplies to being fully broken down and re-used). Everyone seems to imply they're dropping these straight in the skip at the end of the batteries life cycle. The way i see it after you've changed the pack you've got practically a new car, the same period on a petrol car you would be thinking about gaskets, exhaust components, clutches etc over the next 10 years
Biofuels can be a short term solution but I'd be concerned with using arable land to grow fuel. It won't make the fuel any cheaper and food prices are already considered to be getting too expensive too quickly. There is also the issue of some modern engines don't like it.The modified algae grown in Vats method sounds a good idea though
M
moggy1968
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