Electrician has not supplied Certificate

[The Ghost]

not only stroma CPS

Oh I wasn't aware other schemes support that. Which scheme is that?

 

[Octopus]

Oh I wasn't aware other schemes support that. Which scheme is that?

Napit if my memory serves me correctly

 

[The Ghost]

Napit

Can any other NAPIT member confirm that they support third party notification. I can show you my certificate from Stroma specifying in particular third party notification. What form does NAPIT give?

 

[Octopus]

Can any other NAPIT member confirm that they support third party notification. I can show you my certificate from Stroma specifying in particular third party notification. What form does NAPIT give?

No idea

I'm with Stroma and don't / won't do 3rd Party ..........

 

[The Ghost]

I must admit I am rather doubtful as to whether another scheme supports third party. Stroma do but it is very specific to get the certification for third party. However it would be nice to have it confirmed with someone elses scheme certificate showing third party being supported. I know NIC absolutely DO NOT.

 

[Midwest]

I must admit I am rather doubtful as to whether another scheme supports third party. Stroma do but it is very specific to get the certification for third party. However it would be nice to have it confirmed with someone elses scheme certificate showing third party being supported. I know NIC absolutely DO NOT.

Third party certification schemes for domestic electrical work - GOV.UK - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/third-party-certification-schemes-for-domestic-electrical-work

Electrical Third Party Certification | NAPIT - https://www.napit.org.uk/schemes/third-party-certification.aspx

As regards who is the recipient of a certificate (MEIW or EIC), I note BS7671 & GN3 states that the cert's should be received by the person ordering the work, but if not the owner of the installation, the cert' or copy of be given to the owner.

So my understanding, in a new build for example, when the 'owner' will not be established or finalise until some time after the completion of the work, the builder would be given the cert'. After completion of sale, that cert' or copy would be given to the eventual owner. Also in the case of a tenant or lease holder, who would be ordering the work, would follow in a similar process, and the owner of the building receiving the original or copy.

In this particular example, the person ordering the work was the OP, even though the builder subcontracted the work, i.e. OP should have received any certificates direct from the electrician. Under the Building Regulations, the building owner may also be responsible for ensuring that the work complies with Building Regulations. Failure to do so may result in prosecution. Part P Building Regs, states any work should be carried out in accordance with BS7671, which states the issuing of the relevant certificate for works completed.

Hence, I can't see that the builder in this case, was the person ordering the work.

 

[Risteard]

Disagree, my point is that a new circuit should be covered by an EIC, and yes it I did a job with 1 or more new circuits and other circuit mods I would issue an EIC for the lot..

So you don't disagree then?

 

[Risteard]

In this particular example, the person ordering the work was the OP, even though the builder subcontracted the work

Given that the builder contracted the Electrician, it is the builder who ordered the electrical work from the Electrician. Therefore the Electrician was obliged to provide the builder with the certificate(s) and no-one else. It was the builder's responsibility to ensure that these were then received by the OP.

 

[The Ghost]

Ok @Murdoch I eat my words you are correct re Napit. And thanks @Midwest re the info that settles that then. A good piece re Person ordering the work. I might argue with that based on the fact the OP asked the builder to do work. The builder subbed the spark hence builder trumps OP. Ah, @Risteard pipped at the post.

 

[Midwest]

Given that the builder contracted the Electrician, it is the builder who ordered the electrical work from the Electrician. Therefore the Electrician was obliged to provide the builder with the certificate(s) and no-one else. It was the builder's responsibility to ensure that these were then received by the OP.

I'll disagree with you there, as usual BS 7671 is vague on the definition of 'person ordering the work', and it seems I interpret it differently to you.

The OP has asked the builder to do some work, the OP expects that to include services, and would have probably stipulated on the extent of those electrical works. Therefore, the person ordering the work is the home owner, in this case the OP. Unless you can provide suitable evidence to the contrary, we can argue all night long.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

if you put the house up for sale and the missing certificate becomes an issue then you can get an indemnity policy for around £100 tops to cover the property in the event that the work covered by the missing certificate doesn't comply.
Had first hand experience of that recently when my cousin sold her house to move back down this way after her boyfriend sadly passed away. They lived otherside of the country so I couldnt be much help with doing original work. She was missing a certificate for the LED downlights that were installed in the lounge and dining room. She attempted to get the certificate but had no luck so paid for an indemnity policy through her solicitor as it was cheaper than getting it signed off via one of the 3rd party schemes. She paid less than £100 for the insurance indemnity policy and the house was sold with no hiccups

 

[Midwest]

Those indemnity policies have received some bad press in recent years. Effectively they are an insurance policy, that supposedly cover you if local building control find out you've had unapproved works carried out, and tell you to knock down your extension. How that would figure with electrical works, is anyone's guess.

Last time I researched this matter, there was a time scale, on when LBC could tell you to knock down your unapproved extension, i.e. something done 100 years ago would seem unrealistic to be prosecuted for. Think it was 5 years, might be wrong, and probably applies to England & Wales, not Scotland and NI

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

From what i know about the indemnity policies. it covers you in event LABC decided to take enforcement action if the electrical work didn't comply with the regulations, as even minor works must comply and can be enforced regardless of notification. i think the polices are more to cover the cost of making good any work to meet the regs, so you are not out of pocket. in real terms just a money making scam created by insurers to fleece property sellers and buyers...

 

[Leader]

They seem to be pushing these policies for anything and everything. I'm selling a house at the minute and was asked to take out an indemnity policy in lieu of providing a gas safety and electrical cert. My buyer was asked to take one out for her windows that were fitted 20 years ago because she didn't have a fensa cert, never mind that fensa wasn't a thing then! Money for old rope.

 

[Midwest]

From what i know about the indemnity policies. it covers you in event LABC decided to take enforcement action if the electrical work didn't comply with the regulations, as even minor works must comply and can be enforced regardless of notification. i think the polices are more to cover the cost of making good any work to meet the regs, so you are not out of pocket. in real terms just a money making scam created by insurers to fleece property sellers and buyers...

That's what I just friggin said

 

[jcs8215248]

To continue the saga - I am new to this certification process! I do like to understand what is being done however and to ensure that I am not risking any problems in the future if I should come to sell the property. The work in question was done over many months - the final work was completed in March and remedial work then completed about 2 weeks later (two lighting circuits did not work - broken wires that needed to be repaired)

I now have a copy of the Building Regulations Certificate of Compliance dated 13/07/2017 from the Electrician. Here is the text copied from the certificate

Description of Notifiable Work
Electrical
Circuit alteration or addition in a special location
Install one or more new circuits
Install a new circuit for ELV lighting within a dwelling​

My immediate question is regarding the final item. The only new lighting was mains voltage GU10 LED. I thought ELV referred to low voltage i.e. transformer fed lights. If I am correct does the Building Regulations Certificate need to be amended?

 

[Richard Burns]

I would not worry about amending the certificate, extra low voltage lighting installations are not notifiable in England so that line has no meaning as it would be covered by the line above.
In effect that line is not viable in any circumstances so can be discounted, it would not be valid to query whether the work was done and the certificate would be valid if such work were done whether that line was in there or not. Technically it is an error but an invalid error.

 

[jcs8215248]

I queried the ELV part with the electrician

I might be misunderstanding the terminology but the utility lights were GU10 mains voltage rather than low voltage. I am not sure why ELV is mentioned in the certificate.​

Here is his reply

it's more to do with me cutting holes in the ceiling than the voltage as ceiling form part of the fire barrier with in the house so if we cut through it we need to make sure we replace it ie by using fire rated fittings.
And it's to do with heat build up within the floor space
When the lights first came out they where mostly 12 hence the low voltage and got very hot ​

Now we use 230 volt gu10 with leds in so no heat build up either
There is only about 6 boxes that we have to describe the works we carry out So we have to pick the best ones to describe the works ​

The electrician replaced the lighting (originally two independent pendant lights) with one (now two way switched) with 8 new GU10 fittings (not low voltage) and fitted LED bulbs.

Is the building certificate valid by specifying a new (it was existing circuit and was changed to supply the new lights) and the lights are mains not ELV. I can understand the electrician's point about cutting holes in the ceiling affecting the fire resistance. If it matters it is a bungalow and the ceiling of the room is immediately below the pitched roof .

This is the line referred to:

Install a new circuit for ELV lighting within a dwelling​

 

[Midwest]

I think your electrician has just ticked an inappropriate box. There is a box for 'Install a new circuit for ELV lighting within a dwelling' (in my Elecsa on-line notification).

However, Part Building regs says (Part P Regs 2010) 'Extra-low voltage lighting installations, other than pre-assembled, CE-marked lighting sets', but I cannot find that reference in the 2013 version. It may been withdrawn in the 2013 update, but the notification process documentation has not been updated. Either way you do not have this installed. As Richard said it is an error that should not be cause for concern.

The query re fitting fire rated down lights in a domestic property, is somewhat contentious. A domestic property is treated as one fire zone, so therefore as such (with certain caveats) would not need fire rated fittings. However, other building regs do state that any holes made in the fabric of a domestic building should be suitably reinstated, as for example plasterboard is used to protect structural timbers from fire damage, as well as looking nice. There is also advice from Part P schemes to install fire rated down lights, so a scheme member would perhaps not go against this advice, should a fire caused damage through the use of non fire rated luminaire and the subsequent litigation. Personally, I always fit fire rated down lights, as the cost difference is minimal, and negates the issues over interpretation of the regulations.

I think the compliances certificate you've received for the work completed, covers all bases. I think you can put this to bed now?

 

[jcs8215248]

Thanks to the forum for all your help and advice.

I will probably want to use another electrician for further work. It has taken 5 months to get the certificates since the final work was completed (one new radial circuit and some conversion to two way switching) and over 8 months since the first room was completed (new power wiring and the new down-lighters in a utility room). Initially I was not aware that certificates should have been issued within a timescale and unaware that a certificate needed to be sent to building control. There have been several reminders sent by myself and the builder to the electrician.

I thought has just occurred to me - do I assume that the electrician sends the building control certificate to the appropriate authority or do I have to do it? I have an emailed copy now