Joint cables inside back box?

[randym68]

maintenance free joint is one as the name suggests needs no inspection or maintenance. the most common way is insulated crimps, maintenance free has to satisfy 3 criteria

1. insulated no exposed conductive parts ( termination blocks have screw heads)
2. with stand thermal movement upto 70 degc without progressive deteriation of connection (excludes connection blocks, or any screwed type of termination)
3 ip4x so that when plastered or accidentally becomes wet ( ie steaming the paper off wall), will not allow conduction of current.

traditional way to do this is crimps, then covered with thermal setting tape, but now you have wagos (special which are water resistant), other types of bespoke fittings which don't allow water in or slippage of connections ( any 2391 inspector will testify surprisingly how much this happens)

 

[randym68]

question about the CPC (earth* ) outside of the junction box, this is covered by no conductive part shall be exposed, no exposed insulation can be outside of an accessable connection box. all sheathing must now terminate inside the box i think 17th new but i forget. ( was pulled up by NAPIT for this (was only about .5mm but was enough for him to say needed putting right) I know i can hear the electricians on here groaning... i suspect there was a little of the all inspectors have to find something wrong...the reason im told is its to do with under fault conditions PFC prospective fault current can reach upto 6000 A and could cause combustion, or be touched. i know i had similar feeling but thats the rules...

one of main reasons regs are so tight now is we load the circuits far far higher than we did... if anyone in any doubt how important this is, and potentially deadly here is a little tale

arrived at house electrics not working... found 2.5mm as a fuse (changed) gets worse...so its burnt out cable somewhere, continuity tested ok except 2 sockets not working, left it to confirm with landlord rewire, told tenant don't use all these sockets on ring, ( didn't listen i know i should have known) went back next day,

all the ring was gone, started lifting floor boards.....found a bridged ring, (hence tested ok)...and a floor board scorched through to within 5-6mm of surface full width for 2 meter lenth in the hallway 2 rings 2 lighting circuits and shower cable all melted together ...basically this was within minutes of causing fire in hallway, only the conductors vaporizing stopped it...deadly....this as far as we could tell had existed for 15 years no changes ...why did it suddenly happen, they increased load, aquarium and some pet hot box thing (3KW)..... that's why regs are greater why non electricians shouldn't do work, a family of 5 nearly died..........

 

[randym68]

In my opinion all this safe zone business is asking for trouble,and was poorly thought out,obviously by someone with no experience.I mean all of us at some point have probably hung a cupboard and where are the fixings?at the edges,which is exactly where the safe zones are going to be when cupboards are fitted from one end of a wall to the other,right?Also why call it a safe zone?Its an area for cables and therefore carries a risk if you drill into it,hardly safe then is it?the term may be easily understood by us sparks but its other people who cause the problems usually and they probably don,t understand the the safe zone.Anything where there is a risk should be called a danger zone,whats next green flags for on on isolators!Back in my early days cables ran in logical lines horizontally or vertically from an accessory and if it ran somewhere unexpected such as up the bedroom wall to get into the loft for upstairs lights then you ran it through a box and fitted a blank plate,to give a visual indication that a cable was there,no problem back then.Sorry about the rant but I,ve been up half the night trying to sort a major mess out for a mate,retirement! its worse than working.

not called safe zones, thats sparky slang, they called prescribed zones, and they dont just include vertical and horizontal from fitting, they include, wall to ceiling and internal wall to wall junctions for 150mm width....nice little business for me fixing these... i give out little pen voltage detectors to as many chippies and plumbers as i can to detect wires...i get them free from supplier..i know doing self out of business , but one day they will just leave a fixing live, without tripping it. and i like to sleep at night

 

[sbelec]

I agree about the waco's but would also suggest look at Hager maintenance free junction boxes and downlighter boxes -not employed by them in any way!!! They are not cheap but a waco should still technically be fitted in an enclosure and the cables clipped to avoid excess stain on the connection, remember that sheath should never be stripped except when protected by another method. The hager junction boxes have cable clamps built in so no strain can be put on the connection, normally 20amp 4 core for lighting or 3 core for 32 amp. The lighting unit is great for bathrooms where the fan and light are wired off the same switch and a permanent live for the fan as each core can have 4 wires into it. Have a look....
Hate it when I am told by unqualified warehouse staff that round junction boxes are still acceptable under the floor or hidden in roof spaces.

 

[HandySparks]

just to put my 2p in

...and to all, part p has very very restricted work they can complete, things like spurs, and bonding (its designed for associated trades such as plumbers)...

Thank you for your two pennyworth. We're certainly getting value for money here.

 

[neil2jo]

he said he was going to use a blank plate.

why not keep the original socket and make the others part of the ring. you only have to extend one cable then.

You cant do this, the regs says you can 'spur' 1 socket from each socket in the ring, so he could, in this case only spur once creating 2 sockets (not 3) or spur from the said socket to a 13amp fuse spur, then onto the 2 or 3 doubles
However at the time whether this be a ring or a spur he needs to consider the exisitng load expected and circuit capability and as soemone else put, it is notifible work, which is why i went to college and pay a high amount of money to remain registered each year and is also how i know this info

 

[stonejenson]

You've got it dead right matt, nice picture. Doesnt matter what you have behind the blank plate (crimps, terminal block, wagos) its all good although I love wagos these days. I wouldn't worry too much about that Part P nonsense, its your gaff and if you know what you're at then crack on.

On the subject of wagos
Anyone who has never use a wagobox/connectors please please give them a try you dont know what you are missing out on.
Picture this: 4 T&E's and 2 3 cores hanging out of a 70mm downlighter hole all need connecting together in an enclosure that will fit back through that hole.......major headache right...not with a wagobox and connectors. Literally takes about 10 minutes and only tool you need is cutters, no tape no drivers nothing.
Awesome awesome awesome

Dave, I was trying to PM you, to save forum space, but you have a full box apparently! So, -
Seeing as you seem to be a fan of the WAGOs, as is another mate of mine - thought i'd get a basic selection box the other day. Now, if you've used them a lot, perhaps you could advise - I have a client, just moving into a new build (half the estate still under work) all lights in the house have standard loop in/out boxes and a ceiling rose. They want 10 god awful hideous chandelier dangly things putting up, so I need to lose the loop boxes, poke a bigger hole into the plasterboard to hide connectors and leave a simple L/N/E sticking through the hanging plate that they suspend from.
The grey area in my thinking, is that i'd be relying on the WAGO's and pushing them up where the sun don't shine - not like using a little box tucked up in the void through a nice big downlighter hole.
Technically they work on compression, as there are no screws to work loose, so do you (or anyone else) reckon that's OK?

 

[somersetsparks]

question about the CPC (earth* ) outside of the junction box, this is covered by no conductive part shall be exposed, no exposed insulation can be outside of an accessable connection box. all sheathing must now terminate inside the box i think 17th new but i forget. ( was pulled up by NAPIT for this (was only about .5mm but was enough for him to say needed putting right) I know i can hear the electricians on here groaning... i suspect there was a little of the all inspectors have to find something wrong...the reason im told is its to do with under fault conditions PFC prospective fault current can reach upto 6000 A and could cause combustion, or be touched. i know i had similar feeling but thats the rules...

one of main reasons regs are so tight now is we load the circuits far far higher than we did... if anyone in any doubt how important this is, and potentially deadly here is a little tale

arrived at house electrics not working... found 2.5mm as a fuse (changed) gets worse...so its burnt out cable somewhere, continuity tested ok except 2 sockets not working, left it to confirm with landlord rewire, told tenant don't use all these sockets on ring, ( didn't listen i know i should have known) went back next day,

all the ring was gone, started lifting floor boards.....found a bridged ring, (hence tested ok)...and a floor board scorched through to within 5-6mm of surface full width for 2 meter lenth in the hallway 2 rings 2 lighting circuits and shower cable all melted together ...basically this was within minutes of causing fire in hallway, only the conductors vaporizing stopped it...deadly....this as far as we could tell had existed for 15 years no changes ...why did it suddenly happen, they increased load, aquarium and some pet hot box thing (3KW)..... that's why regs are greater why non electricians shouldn't do work, a family of 5 nearly died..........

With regards to the cpc's outside the junction boxes - Its bad practise these days and I would never do it but its hardly dangerous, think of conduit, should we sleeve all of that because it forms the protective conductor?

 

[Guitarist]

With regards to the cpc's outside the junction boxes - Its bad practise these days and I would never do it but its hardly dangerous, think of conduit, should we sleeve all of that because it forms the protective conductor?

There is obviously a difference between a situation where the cpc (sleeved) has been brought outside the JB, and one where the outer sheath is cut off short of the JB and inner insulation is unprotected.
Big no-no to do these days but I don't consider the latter dangerous if I happen across it as part of an old install.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

You cant do this, the regs says you can 'spur' 1 socket from each socket in the ring, so he could, in this case only spur once creating 2 sockets (not 3) or spur from the said socket to a 13amp fuse spur, then onto the 2 or 3 doubles
However at the time whether this be a ring or a spur he needs to consider the exisitng load expected and circuit capability and as soemone else put, it is notifible work, which is why i went to college and pay a high amount of money to remain registered each year and is also how i know this info

Are you an electrician? I don't think so. I will try to explain WHY my suggestion is perfectly acceptable. Take off the high level socket front. Crimp ONE LEG OF THE RING and extend it to the next socket. bring the return leg from the new socket back to the high level one and re-terminate.

This is how you extend a ring. If you want to have more sockets, simply take the crimped extended leg to the new furthest pint and work you way back.

Is this simple enough for you?

And Miketwinny, I suggest you learn to read before liking dumb posts.

 

[neil2jo]

Are you an electrician? I don't think so. I will try to explain WHY my suggestion is perfectly acceptable. Take off the high level socket front. Crimp ONE LEG OF THE RING and extend it to the next socket. bring the return leg from the new socket back to the high level one and re-terminate.

This is how you extend a ring. If you want to have more sockets, simply take the crimped extended leg to the new furthest pint and work you way back.

Is this simple enough for you?

And Miketwinny, I suggest you learn to read before liking dumb posts.

your actual original post reads
'why not keep the original socket and make the others part of the ring. you only have to extend one cable then.'


therefore only extending '1' part of the ring is to in affect make a radial/spur from the ring

as you rightly state extending both cables to open the ring is fine...but is not what you originally wrote!!
However no where have you wrote that you should check its a ring as this could be half way through a radial, or check demand etc etc etc

In answer to your question yes I am an electrician and one of the first registered with NICEIC scheme back at part P launch plus time served way before the scheme, not that has anything to do with getting it right or wrong

However it would seem your use of English and gramma when forming sentences, is mis-leading therefore asking the question 'did you go to school'...i dont think so!! lol

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Hey guys, before this degenerates any more into an insult swopping session lets knock it on the head now. I read Voltz's post as exending the ring, Neil obviously didn't. A simple misunderstanding of terminology by Neil coupled with an uncalled for questioning of compentance from Voltz.
Kiss and make up eh.

 

[Miketwinny]

If the OP keeps the original double socket of the ring he will have to extend one cable with crimps.If he makes it redundant he will have to extend the ring and have two crimped connections left in place of the original double socket in an in-line JB.:nopity:

 

[VoltzElectrical]

your actual original post reads
'why not keep the original socket and make the others part of the ring. you only have to extend one cable then.'


therefore only extending '1' part of the ring is to in affect make a radial/spur from the ring

as you rightly state extending both cables to open the ring is fine...but is not what you originally wrote!!
However no where have you wrote that you should check its a ring as this could be half way through a radial, or check demand etc etc etc

In answer to your question yes I am an electrician and one of the first registered with NICEIC scheme back at part P launch plus time served way before the scheme, not that has anything to do with getting it right or wrong

However it would seem your use of English and gramma when forming sentences, is mis-leading therefore asking the question 'did you go to school'...i dont think so!! lol

I think the clue in my post is 'make the others part of the RING', in no way suggests that the OP form a radial from the ring. Not sure why you read it that way. Anyways, I did go to school, then became an English teacher for 3 years!

The sun is shining, and I'm off to walk the dog. I'm not on here to make enemies and shouldn't have called your expertise in question. That was uncalled for and I apologise. I was grumpy this morning because the same dog got me up at 4 o'clock this morning!

 

[Guitarist]

Yes it can be done, It is called a Parallel Connection, just don't forget to use proper wire gage or bigger wire diameter, just in case to avoid overload connection and overheating of wiring..

I love random comments...

 

[HandySparks]

I love random comments...

I suspect that spam is imminent, once he's got his post count up.