Discuss Nuts for RCDs! in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Sorry JB not quite get what your saying ...................so if you use a RCD/RCBO on a TN system, you don't use the 1667 value that is clearly stated, but refer back to the values in table 41.3 for MCBs, even though the table since the amendment now refers you to regulation 411.4.9 for the use of RCBOs ( And IMO it should also say RCDs as well to save confusion but the IET like a little confusion) and onto table 41.5 and it's values.

Be it TT, TN the ZS value of a 30mA RCD is 1667
 
Sorry JB not quite get what your saying ...................so if you use a RCD/RCBO on a TN system, you don't use the 1667 value that is clearly stated, but refer back to the values in table 41.3 for MCBs, even though the table since the amendment now refers you to regulation 411.4.9 for the use of RCBOs ( And IMO it should also say RCDs as well to save confusion but the IET like a little confusion) and onto table 41.5 and it's values.

Be it TT, TN the ZS value of a 30mA RCD is 1667

Correct as the wording stands, but my point is, that 411.4.9 clearly states, 'where an RCD is used to satisfy the requirements of max Zs under 411.3.2.2 you MAY apply the values in table 41.5, again my point isn't about terminology, clearly but the fact is you should meet the Zs values in 41.3 and only if you can not you may apply the values in table 41.5
J
 
There appears to be a common misconception, that a skilled person has to be a qualified electrician.
This is not so.
All a skilled person has to have, is knowledge that there is a risk of electrocution or fire when using electrical equipment, and how to avoid those risks.
Such knowledge could be to check for damage and to not use the equipment if any damage is evident.

There are two Statutory documents which relate to workers and dangers in the work place.
One is the HSWA 1974 and the other is EAWR 1989.
Regulation 2(c) of the HSWA requires an employer to ensure: "the provision of such information, instruction, training and supervision as is necessary to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health and safety at work of his employees;".
Regulation 16 of the EAWR requires: "No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work."
These two Statutory requirements make it a legal requirement that any worker or employee meet the requirements to be considered either a 'skilled' or 'instructed' person as defined by BS7671 when carrying out work related duties where electricity may present a danger.
If an employer were to allow an employee who doesn't meet the requirements of BS7671 to be considered a 'skilled' or 'instructed' person, to carry out a work related duty where electricity could present a danger, that employer would be breaking the law.
BS7671 does not provide Regulations or requirements for instances where people would act illegally.
It's considered that if someone is prepared to act illegally, then it is very unlikely that they will at the same time comply with any non-statutory Regulations or requirements.

The requirements for RCD protection apply in the main to domestic installations, because there are no statutory requirements relating to the type of person who would use such an installation.
The first part of the requirement for RCD protection relating to socket-outlets, indicates that the requirement only relates to where the socket-outlets are used by ordinary persons.
The second part indicates that the requirement relates only to those socket-outlets that are intended for general use.
As such the requirement to provide RCD protection for socket-outlets only relates to those socket-outlets that are intended for general use by ordinary persons.
Socket-outlets that are intended for connecting washing machines, fridges, dishwashers, microwaves, cookers, boilers even TVs are not required to be provided with RCD protection.

There are two exceptions to the requirement, and to be honest the exceptions are redundant.
One is for where the use of a socket-outlet by an ordinary person is supervised by a skilled or instructed person.
If the ordinary person is being so supervised, then they are effectivly being instructed and would no longer be considered as an ordinary person.
The other is for where a general use socket-outlet is specifically labeled or otherwise identified as being for use to connect a specific item of equipment.
If a socket-outlet was intended for use only to connect a specific item of equipment, then it would not be considered as being intended for general use, and the exception would not apply.
 
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Nice write up nicely put but I take issue with this..

'Socket-outlets that are intended for connecting washing machines, fridges, dishwashers, microwaves, cokkers, boilers even TVs are not required to be provided with RCD protection.'

Unless the socket is labeled, or suitably identified for a particular item of equipment, to have a socket in a lounge and neglect to RCD it ' because its for the TV' would be very irresponsible, as clearly that socket could also be easily used for another purpose by an 'Ordinary Person', also your above observation would not be valid if the cables were buried ( unless under a skilled..bla..bla )
ATB
J
 
JB, you cannot generally use the skilled/instructed person 'get out' clause in a domestic install, and the socket without RCD protection for use with say a freezer although may be used without an RCD, the supplying cable may still require RCD protection unless it is buried >50mm or ran surface/in conduit, or in an earthed metallic sheath (Ali-tube or armoured etc.).
 
I am reading these posts and the thing that hits me is reality ie electricity via sockets has been here for say 100 years but RCDs have not so ok they can now be mass manufactured at a cost effective price and yes you people who are new to our trade want to RCD everything and so does the Schemies as this raises safety in their eyes so in a domestic situation it is a natural progression the problem as I see it is that we have 2 thoughts 1 is domestic and the other is commercial / Industrial so depending on your background you will want to apply RCD protection to everything or you will want to discriminate between jobs.

For me this is like the "Can I use conduit as an earth" question where someone new says O no seperate earth must apply where poor old 14th edition me would say give me an electrically & mechanically conduit any day
 
I don't see any confusion, he has applied section 411.3.3, and used exceptions a, or b, under this reg, as long as the sockets are under the supervision or a skilled or instructed person ( IMHO this should be noted on the cert ) OR the socket outlets are labelled for use with a particular item of equipment he isn't in contravention of the regs, but I still await the OP's response to my earlier question why he thinks RCD protection only applies to domestic dwellings ?
ATB
J



Good point however isn’t true that whenever we enter into negotiations regarding particulars of an installation & its intended use we as tradesmen have to rely on the word of the client. If the client is adamant that the equipment and installation is going to be used by a certain type of person skilled or unskilled who are we to argue. I guess we can only go by what we are told. To separate circuits accordingly and to suit the requirements is good practise, to use rcds to where they may not be needed is unnecessary.. As most of this stuff is recorded on certs, little notes can be inserted to agree limitations or to highlight an aggreement..

Although rcds are great devices for shock protection originally they were only used in domestic with regard to cables being damaged & additional protection for outdoors via socket-outlets. You be lucky to see them in many commercial and industrial installations. Without disagreeing with anyone I think without the rcd its fine, providing of course your client has informed of the type of personnel that will be using the install.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nice write up nicely put but I take issue with this..

'Socket-outlets that are intended for connecting washing machines, fridges, dishwashers, microwaves, cokkers, boilers even TVs are not required to be provided with RCD protection.'

Unless the socket is labeled, or suitably identified for a particular item of equipment, to have a socket in a lounge and neglect to RCD it ' because its for the TV' would be very irresponsible, as clearly that socket could also be easily used for another purpose by an 'Ordinary Person', also your above observation would not be valid if the cables were buried ( unless under a skilled..bla..bla )
ATB
J
It may well be considered 'irresponsible' not to provide RCD protection for a socket-outlet intended for use to connect a TV.
However the requirement to provide RCD protection only relates to socket-outlets intended for general use.
There is no requirement to label or otherwise identify any socket-outlet that is not intended for general use.
As such if the socket-outlet is intended for use to connect a TV, there is no requirement to label, otherwise identify or provide RCD protection for that socket-outlet.

Providing RCD protection for the socket-outlet would not necessarily provide RCD protection for cables concealed in walls.
I have not posted in relation to cables concealed in walls, as there are other methods of providing additonal protection for such cables, and there is an exception to the requirement, for when the installation is under the control of a skilled or instructed person.
The exception would not be applicable, if all the workers meet the requirements to be considered as skilled or instructed.
 

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