Discuss Solar Business in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Agreed Gavin A. The comparison could have been better.
I still hold the view that buying cheap solar panels over time will prove to be an expensive mistake.
I've looked at hundreds of solar systems on PVoutput.org and there is a large variance in the results people obtain, when combining different invertors, different panels, different roof orienatations, gradients etc.
The bottom line is how much energy does your system create, to maximise FIT returns?
Thats why most people put them there.
If your system isn't reaching optimum generation, individuals wont be maximising their solar potential.
As you are more of a solar expert than myself, please could you help educate individuals on this forum.
What inverters, solar panels etc do you trust and recommend?
Many people reading these forums are interested in installing solar systems with the best performance / price / reliability characteristics available.
 
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Vegelen,

You may be suprised to find there is not one panel / inverter choice that suits all for optimum performance, I have found I can design a system in portsmouth that give optimum output compared to another array, however in newport the other array performs better than that in portsmouth.

size, orientation, pitch, etc will determin different panels / inverters for different customers so this is where learning your products comes in along with PVsol, PVsyst design knowledge with basic understanding of average generation through maybe PVGIS or Climate SAF as a bolt on to the standard sap calcs.
 
Variation in local ambient temperature too.
Evidently, there are lots of variables in each installation location.
But some solar panels and inverters are better choices than others.
If they weren't everyone would go for the cheapest possible, which they dont for good reason.
 
And if installers told you their configurations and the reasons why they use the configurations on the forums they would be giving away their hard earned knowledge which at the end of the day is just as important as the configuration itself.

I am happy to tell customers why a specific configuration is chosen for their house but I would not then tell the competition those reasons.
 
Vegelen, since I'm avoiding doing actual work for a bit I'll attempt a start of an answer to your question, and tbh if you want anything more detailed you'll need to register for a master course if you can find any providers who actually know what they're talking about (most don't in my experience once you get into the details).

There is no one size fits all optimum panel and inverter combination, there are many different optimum combinations depending on the characteristics of the site, requirements of the customer (eg do they want a decent wireless monitoring system, do they want black framed panels for the looks), and the costs and availability of specific equipment at that point in time.

In general if it's a roof with limited space we'd usually prefer the Sanyo panels both for their increased generation capacity for that given roof area, and their higher operating voltage to increase the inverter efficiency, as well as ~5% performance improvements from their better high temperature and low light performance. This used to be a no brainer for anyone with the money, as the improved FIT payments outweighed the increased costs in percentage terms most of the time. It's now no longer so clear cut as the costs of the cheaper panels have plummeted so much faster than the Sanyo panels that they probably will give slightly better returns in percentage terms.

If there's shading we'd generally use the 4000TL (now 3600TL) due to its dual MPPT and optitrac global peak shading function. Other options could be solar Edge, or micro inverters, which both have pros and cons.

TBH we generally specify the 4000TL anyway for most of the 4kW jobs because most want the sunny beam option, although on unshaded systems I'd think that either the aurora or fronius inverters would be better in single string mode when matched with 16 x 30V panels due to their higher voltage range allowing the single string which is going to be closer to their peak efficiency range. If the option is there, we'd advise on the use of eg 20 x 190Wp 36V panels in place of 16 x 240Wp 30V panels though because the string voltage is closer to the optimal, but this isn't always practical / cost effective.

For big roofs with no shading though, it really is very hard to argue against installing basic cheap chinese panels to get a 4kWp array up as cheaply as possible, as the overall cost savings are almost certain to far outweigh the potential increased financial returns from the better panels (IMO usually in the 1-3% range if anything, unless you've made a really bad choice for the cheap panels). Having installed a lot of panels from a lot of manufacturers, I'm pretty certain that price doesn't always equal quality, and that many of the cheap chinese panels are as well built or better than many higher priced European panels. They're also almost certainly built in brand new factories using the exact same machinery as most of the more well known Chinese and other brands, and the kit they use would probably put Sharp's Wrexham plant to shame if Sharps publicity shots are anything to go by.

There are legitimate arguments about if they'll be around to honour warranties etc, but tbh other than the major brand names that have massive interests outside of solar, I doubt there can be any guarantees about any of the big solar companies (which is why we like using Hyundai, Sanyo / Panasonic etc.). I remember a time when Solarex were about the biggest solar panel manufacturer in the USA, then got taken over by BP, became BP Solarex, then BP dropped the solarex name, failed to invest in it properly, massively dropped market share and eventually closed its solar business last year, before apparently restarting it again this year based on buying dirt cheap chinese manufactured panels and rebranding them as BP...... personally I reckon it's more honest to simply buy and sell the dirt cheap chinese panels directly instead of selling them badged as BP at a premium... but I digress.

I'm also of the opinion that essentially, as long as the build quality is there, then one mono or poly crystaline panel is basically much the same as another, and the degradation rate isn't going to be a lot different between them unless they use seriously mismatched cells, or dodgy bypass diodes.

IMO the place not to scrimp really is the inverter unless roof space is so limited that the efficiency of the panels is actually a factor, as cheap inverters will almost certainly have cheap capacitors and other components that will fail much earlier than those using higher quality components. In Mozzers case I believe he's got 2 x 4000TL, which definitely doesn't count as scrimping.

The key to maximising performance to value ratio IMO really is trying to best match the voltage and capacity of the array with the inverters peak operating efficiency point, which is why comparing different panels on different inverters with different string set ups is such a poor way of comparing actual panel performance.

right, I'm bored now so I'll leave you to ponder on it yourself.
 
And if installers told you their configurations and the reasons why they use the configurations on the forums they would be giving away their hard earned knowledge which at the end of the day is just as important as the configuration itself.

I am happy to tell customers why a specific configuration is chosen for their house but I would not then tell the competition those reasons.
true to some extent, but then I reckon the entire industry would benefit if there was a general across the board improvement in the understanding of the technology from installers and customers alike, as there would be less examples of shoddy workmanship, underperforming systems etc to give the industry a bad name.

I also find that the best way of improving my knowledge is to put it out there for others to challenge in case I've missed something, as it's almost certain there are no actual courses out there in the UK at least that are going to improve my knowledge and understanding of SSEG scale PV systems, yet I'm aware that my knowledge isn't 100% perfect, and there are always little hints and tips to be picked up from others who maybe specialise in different inverters, or have better data than me etc.

I probably could be doing something more productive with my time though tbf.
 
Gavin

I have no problems sharing with other in the know and I generally do this off the forums, there has been many a debate at the likes of the ECO build exhibitor drinks, I remember one debate went pearshaped, but, like on this forum there is an exchange of ideas and a lot of banter. There is many cases where I have helped other companies and they have helped me. However, that is trust gained.

As competitors we do not growl and snear at each other, I will support anybody with schematics, designs and reasons for those designs off forum I have already proved I am willing to share opinion agreeable or otherwise. Someone learning will be able to take on board those comments and comments of others to make their own judgements.

Where I draw the line as I have seen it so many times is when people ask you to teach them all you know and then go right against you, there is many times I have given sound advice on large scale projects and the installer has taken that advice and gone else where for product (elswhere was not able to advise).
 
Many people on these forums are just trying to learn and enhance their Solar knowledge for many reasons.
I gain from other peoples knowledge and I go out of my way to help others.
Some people float around the forums, take knowledge from other people and then never give anything back.
These type of people will always be like that, regardless.
The more people that understand, embrace and install Solar PV technology, the better.
If people dont want to share their knowledge on these forums, they dont have to.
 
Vegelen

I have exchanged views with moggy because I know which company he works with, I have exchanged views with solar city because I know which company he works with, I have exchanged views with Silbert for the same reasons, of which I hope have been constructive, do you see the pattern on which I work??

Links to websites or information on who you are goes a long way, as for those who have installations carried out on their homes I will try to assist all day long and they do not have to tell me who they are, for that matter nor do you, its an open forum, if you are in the trade then be proud of it and tell us who you are in the form of a signature, an avatar or something.
 
Nobody said you also have to be a quick confident roofer, not just a spark!
Think of a job in building services HVAC, thats possibly a more stable career. A basic spark is poorly paid and this is a job for basic electrical installation.
Solar PV was a gold rush and as will all gold rushes they gradually come to an end :-(
 

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