My neighbour has put up a large garage that sits alongside his house but not joined to it. He asked me to wire & fit out lights inside & sockets as well. Told him he needs to get SWA to supply it as he was insisting on runnning the supply in (save money I assume) & for some reason (mainly cos he's tight) he's went & put a plastic pipe from the house to the garage & run a 10mm twin & earth & a 10mm earth through it!! It looks rough as & to be honest I'm pretty annoyed as the cable was going to be run underground to in ducting to supply it. He's adamant he's leaving it like that unless he's breaking any rules! Anyone help?!?! If there's Reg that's not being complied with he'd have no option than to do it the way I said!
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Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
Discuss Surely there must be a Reg against this?! in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
K
Knobhead
He's got the ulitmate option, tell you to swivel and get Joe from down the pub.
D
Deleted member 9648
As long as there is adequate protection from sunlight...(in plastic pipe should be ok)....and adequate protection from mechanical damage I cant see a problem. Nowhere in Bs 7671 does it say the only cable that can be used externally is SWA.....Did he check the price of SWA?....would be surprised if it cost any more than what he's done TBH.
As above..........it will be your name on the rest of the install so if you are not happy with the supply arrangements walk away.
As above..........it will be your name on the rest of the install so if you are not happy with the supply arrangements walk away.
M
monkeyelectric
I recently done a job like this, guy ran all the cables himself and was so pleased with himself, he said it took him 3 days to dig the conduit in and thread the t+e down it, apparantly threading the cable was the hard part! Some people think this is a cheaper way of doing it for some stupid reason but each to there own, i just noted on the cert that cable was already in place if it ever got questioned which i doubt it would
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its a rough design but not aware of any reqs hes broken
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I guess my only concern would be if the plastic pipe filled up with water, which would be unlikely if both ends are inside but entirely possible if one or both ends are external. The T&E wouldn't be suitable for immersion. Otherwise, just note it on the cert (and invoice) as monkey says.
Apparently he's away offshore yesterday so I may just tell the wife it's against the regs to do it this way & that I'd have to do it the way I said. Like you guys have said, it's my name that's on it & the last thing I want is other sparkles thinking that I'm rough which I'm not! Does the SWA have to be further protected going down the side of the house or just cleated?
M
monkeyelectric
what happens if he finds out its not against regs? he's your neighbour so you can't get away from him and you'll see him all the time, i know i wouldn't be very happy if someone done that to me, i would just do it the way he wants as its within regs and just note it on the cert. What makes you think other electricians will be round there looking at your work? surely if you do a good job you'll be his first choice for future work
B
Badged01
Have to agree with the comments, doesnt seem to be against the regs provided the run of the conduit is support, cables sufficiently mechanically protected, sealed for water ingress etc ........ and of course that you find it suitable for the environment its being used in. (No kids gonna be swinging on it as Ive seen before!!) If you dont, then dont be putting your signature to any paperwork unless you caveat it to exclude the work already done.
M
MDJ
But how far is the garage from the house out of interest?
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OP - I think you're barking up a tree that doesn't exist, tbh. If the cable is mechanically protected then it's fine, no matter how rough it looks or how much you wanted to go practice some SWA glanding. Lying to the client/s is a dispicable notion and is what's driving this industry to the dogs - don't do it.
The only thing you DO have to consider is the maximum loadings that can be applied using that combination of cable type so you can at least practice your voltage drop and adiabatic equations and get your tape measure out. Though, you don't need to bother with the adiabatic really as the regs have been satisfied with CPC CC.
You test the cable/s before energising and commissioning, you mark it as pre-installed on the sheet, and you move on.
The only thing you DO have to consider is the maximum loadings that can be applied using that combination of cable type so you can at least practice your voltage drop and adiabatic equations and get your tape measure out. Though, you don't need to bother with the adiabatic really as the regs have been satisfied with CPC CC.
You test the cable/s before energising and commissioning, you mark it as pre-installed on the sheet, and you move on.
B
BlueToBits
This sort of thing gives us a bad name. We can't call something non-compliant just because we don't like it or think we can do better. We have to be able to justify exactly why it is non-compliant and that means more than just getting a second opinion from someone on an Internet forum. If I was a customer who had paid out £1000s to dig up and re-lay my new drive because some electrician incorrectly said my overhead conduit was non-compliant, I'd be taking that electrician to court.
Thanks for the advice chaps. I spoke with the mans wife tonight & she informed me she'd rather there was no pipe going from between the house & the garage! Not wanting to cause them a huge hike in price, I suggested to her that I could run the SWA from the garage to inside the house loft (a distance of about 8m) & then just join it in a joint box (not the best I know but believe me a lot better than the visible pipe) throught to the house CU. She's more than happy with this she said. I think if I suggested this way in the first place her husband may have been OK with this, I think he just wasn't keen on a 25m run in SWA because of the price. It's not going to take half an hour to dig the trench & luckily for me my mate has a day off next week & says he'll do it for me (yes he's one of those that can't sit still on a day off unlike me!!). It wasn't even a 10mm T & E he ran in either it was a 6mm! Will still be fine though as it's just a ring & 4 strip lights & I'm sure there ain't going to be a massive voltage drop in a 25m run! Going to try & figure out how to post a picture on here as I took one earlier just to let you's see what he'd done.
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aye but i dont like grey flat twins clipped on outside walls tel...uv light n all that lot....
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hmm.....would`v been easier to just get a bit of armoured....and go method D with it...Here's the picture. Not the worst you've seen I'm sure but I just wasn't wanting to put my name to it, where I live word spreads quick so something rough like this wouldn't do me any favours!
Yeah I know but there was no telling him!! His wife has given me go ahead to run armoured from garage cu to inside property & put it in a joint box in attic then T&E to cu. It's not the best having to join it but going to have to compromise as they guy obviously doesn't want to spend much money. Least this way it will look tidy & I've not got people thinking I'm rough!
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well.....its your job gall.....so of course its your call.....
after all you will be responsible for certing this....
think i would avoid jointing onto some twin though with a throughbox (presumably)....
hmm......take `instruction` from his Mrs.......let her deal with `im when the time comes...lol....
at least you know it will be as it should be....in reality...
after all you will be responsible for certing this....
think i would avoid jointing onto some twin though with a throughbox (presumably)....
hmm......take `instruction` from his Mrs.......let her deal with `im when the time comes...lol....
at least you know it will be as it should be....in reality...
Yes, maybe I'll just check the prices tomorrow as surely there can't be much of a difference between the price of what's already run in (6mm t+e and a 10mm earth) and 6mm SWA on it's own. I'm no certain but I'm pretty sure the price when I got 6mm SWA 3 core the other week it was around about £2.40 per metre.
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well is there any extranious in that garage?....
is it PME?
if so then the 10mm earthing will have to stay...
is it PME?
if so then the 10mm earthing will have to stay...
K
Knobhead
There's a very simple answer to this. If you don't want to put your name to it, walk away.
D
Deleted member 9648
Having seen the pic it would be interesting to know why you thought this doesn't comply with the regs Gallager.
M
MDJ
I'm more concerned about the trailing lead on the floor, the supply to the shed looks fine from the outside.
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No one seems to have picked up on the conduit been plastic (electrical conduit assumed) isnt ideal for the environment its in namely that
in the summer sunlight it will heat up on one side quicker than the other and buckle and warp, this can nip/trap the cable.
Another point is white pipe unless stated lacks UV tolerance and will degrade and become brittle very quickly, its difficult to tell from pic how the conduit is attached at either end and how its sealed as you will find the rain will readily run down to the lower point along the conduit.
Ive just had a callout to the exact same thing a garden shed with a 20mm white pvc conduit from house which had warped and sliced into the very cable its supposed to protect also it was showing UV damage too to add to this, upon enquiry she told me the guys from B&Q did it for her when they took old shed away and fitted new one last year, no rcd protection etc etc need i say more!
in the summer sunlight it will heat up on one side quicker than the other and buckle and warp, this can nip/trap the cable.
Another point is white pipe unless stated lacks UV tolerance and will degrade and become brittle very quickly, its difficult to tell from pic how the conduit is attached at either end and how its sealed as you will find the rain will readily run down to the lower point along the conduit.
Ive just had a callout to the exact same thing a garden shed with a 20mm white pvc conduit from house which had warped and sliced into the very cable its supposed to protect also it was showing UV damage too to add to this, upon enquiry she told me the guys from B&Q did it for her when they took old shed away and fitted new one last year, no rcd protection etc etc need i say more!
M
monkeyelectric
That doesn't look too hideous, I was expecting far worse from the description, I would be reluctant to replace it if that's what the guy wanted, he's happy with it obviously, although it sounds like the boss his Mrs doesn't like it so that the end of it
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i was referring to SWA cleated. not T/E.
So you wait till hubby is out of the way and give the wife the hard sell just so you don't look out of your window and see this pipe
But you are causing the cost of the job to escalate and suggesting you replace what you consider a problem with another method you consider is another problem and not the best !!!
Probably better than an armoured cleated down an outside wall, personally the my way or no way somebody find me a reg attitude to justify what I don't like is ringing bells with me
What if where you live your name goes round as someone who waits till hubby's away and sells unnecessary work to their wives
I thought we only certified for electrical safety and compliance with the regs not whether or not the job looks right.
While the let her deal with him when he comes home may work you are only a phone call or in this case a fence away from confrontation
If PVCu outside is that much of a problem outside I'd be more worried about my plastic windows falling out
With one poor installation it doesn't necessarily follow they will all suffer the same installation problem IMO
Looks neater than a surface cleated SWA to me but each to their own if it's safe it's not a problem in my book
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no its just that i (and i am sure most others in here) have seen it umpteen times.....usually feeding PIR lamps n stuff....
of course i wasn`t suggesting for a moment that you would do it Tel.....
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I thought we only certified for electrical safety and compliance with the regs not whether or not the job looks right.
While the let her deal with him when he comes home may work you are only a phone call or in this case a fence away from confrontation
[/QUOTE]so.....do you not think it needs to look something like as well?...
While the let her deal with him when he comes home may work you are only a phone call or in this case a fence away from confrontation
[/QUOTE]so.....do you not think it needs to look something like as well?...
The OP was looking for a reg to dis the overhead pipe using BS 7671 we don't certify the aesthetics of an installation providing it is safe and functional that is it. While we may suggest other equally safe and functional installation methods it is not for us to cast aspersions as to other peoples methods to complete an installation if they can live with it then it is their choice
Yes I agree a job needs to look right but this is no worse than a SWA surface cleated to the exterior wall of the house and probably garage wall personally I believe wherever possible cables should be out of sight and out of mind to a point where my bit of OCD kicks in and it becomes a mission to do the job with no cable on show
S
Silly Sausage
I think it could fall foul of External Influences.
Someone could see that pipe and think 'Great pullup bar', jump up and grab hold and rip it all down. :wink_smile:
Someone could see that pipe and think 'Great pullup bar', jump up and grab hold and rip it all down. :wink_smile:
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i have occasionally been guilty of clipping 1.0mm T/E to external lights. sometimes there's just not enough in the job to T/E into an adaptable box, then out in u/v resistant flex. do it if the money's right.
Nothing extranious in the the garage but surely if there was I could use the armour as an earth?. If the 10mm has to stay its no big deal. I got good discounted prices today & they are as follows: 6mm t & e £2.17 + vat per metre & SWA £2.04 + vat. So it's goin' to work out cheaper my way anyway! As he had already run the cable in (albeit not the one that's going to stay) I will not charge him for the labour for running the new one in. So all in, it's going to work out cheaper this way.
I wasn't sure if it did or didn't. One thing that concerned me though was that each side of the pipe was just entered into each side & not secure in any way. I check the stability of it & it wobbled a fair bit. It's a fairly open area & who's to say if it was high winds this would stay in place.
Oh and UNG I didn't give the wife the hard sell at all, I explained the situation to her. It's not as if I'm doing this my way for financial gain as I won't make a single penny more, it's more so my work looks neat & tidy. The cleated cable will be hidden as well with a protective cover & goes into the garage that via a duct that's already in place.
A
ayjay
well, at least she can hang her washing out to dry on the pipe, nothing too heavy mind
just smalls
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just smalls
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D
Deleted member 9648
Well maybe...maybe not....if you use 6.0mm 3c XPLE SWA the sheath has a copper equivalent of 7.39mm....not big enough for a 10mm main bond if the supply is TNCS.....
Ah man, forgot it's a 6mm & not a 10mm! I have to run a 10mm earth then so be it, I'll just knock the extra of what I'll charge so that they don't have to pay more. Nothing will be seen cable wise anyway as it will have a protective cover over it & then go underground through ducting. Your username gave me a wee chuckle by the way! lol.
Yeh someone just said that. If needed I'll just run the seperate 10mm. I never knew until this thread that the armour was 7 odd mill though, learn something new every day!
B
bugsy
tell him your happy to utilise his install - It makes you smile when leaving for work and again when you get home,
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If you want for the regs on that conduit, look for conduit support spacings, looks like you have about 2 m run with no supports(no compliant), then white pvc is not good in sunlight(not sure about regs on this one), and then I see this conduit being a good support for some numpty doing pullups.
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I think you find that is part of the OSG and not the regulations
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Looks like 2" waste pipe to me, a totally different animal.
1 more question regarding this damn garage again!! Right carried out the swa/ducting plan. Obviously he'd already measured off the 10mm earth so I had just run it in with my swa, anyway the garage door has a steel frame down each side, bolted to the wall, sitting on very small wooden stilts then onto concrete, this is going to need bonded I assume but the 10mm earth only goes a far as the garage cu, is the bond to be continuous from the house or is from the garage cu to the steel adequate? Last question on this subject, I promise.lol.
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