Discuss The Ring is dead, long live the Radial!⚡ in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

You have to realise that the UK (and Republic of Ireland, and a few other countries) use fused plugs.

So we can have a large number of sockets off a 32A breaker, in fact our regulations don't limit the number, and then each appliance will have its own fuse, typically 3A, 5A or 13A, depending on what it needs.

Thus fault handling is usually the appliance fuse going, for example if the flex is damaged, but if the fixed wiring has a fault or someone manages to load enough sockets up then the breaker is there to clear it.

Because of this we typically will wire a whole floor of a house on one ring circuit with the two ends going back to the same breaker, and to make the cable cost lower we use 2.5mm cable (about 13 AWG, instead of 4mm, about 11 AWG, in most cases). This also has the advantage that our CPC (earth/ground wire) has no single point of failure, typically if the ring opens on the CPC the socket is still earthed by one leg, as are all others.

Now using 4mm you can run the same sort of thing (lots of 13A sockets on a 32A breaker) but you have a much shorter length before voltage drop becomes a limit, and an open CPC leaves the remaining sockets without ground/earth protection.

So it really is just for our general purpose socket outlets - for large fixed loads like cookers, showers, water heaters, etc, we put them on their own breaker as a radial circuit.

Trying to understand the finer points of a UK consumer lashing & RCB install. The wife & I are hoping to stay in Scotland on an extended basis. It would stand to reason I should keep to my trade for work.
The mm to awg, & all the acronyms for parts are begining to sink in a bit. I also noticed your multimeters are a bit different 'looking' then I'm used to. Thanks for the clarifications. I didn't realise there is a fuse in each outlet, makes sense now. Also the individual switching is interesting too.
I really don't do alot of home wiring anymore. I do almost exclusively commercial & industrial at this point.
Cheers.
 
Trying to understand the finer points of a UK consumer lashing & RCB install. The wife & I are hoping to stay in Scotland on an extended basis. It would stand to reason I should keep to my trade for work.
The mm to awg, & all the acronyms for parts are begining to sink in a bit. I also noticed your multimeters are a bit different 'looking' then I'm used to. Thanks for the clarifications. I didn't realise there is a fuse in each outlet, makes sense now. Also the individual switching is interesting too.
I really don't do alot of home wiring anymore. I do almost exclusively commercial & industrial at this point.
Cheers.

The fuse is in the plug rather than the socket outlet.
 
Trying to understand the finer points of a UK consumer lashing & RCB install. The wife & I are hoping to stay in Scotland on an extended basis. It would stand to reason I should keep to my trade for work.
The mm to awg, & all the acronyms for parts are begining to sink in a bit. I also noticed your multimeters are a bit different 'looking' then I'm used to. Thanks for the clarifications. I didn't realise there is a fuse in each outlet, makes sense now. Also the individual switching is interesting too.
I really don't do alot of home wiring anymore. I do almost exclusively commercial & industrial at this point.
Cheers.
Are you mistaking multimeters for the Multi Function Testers (MFT's) we use for installation testing, we still use the standard multimeters but these are not capable of carrying out the tests needed to verify an installation
 
@Maji236

Just for you information, In France plugs are unfused, all sockets are on radials, maximum of twelve sockets in 2.5mm on 20A breaker or eight sockets in 1.5mm on 16A, kitchen supply must have at least six sockets above the worktop, water heaters and white goods have their own supply off the CU plus extract fans, power gates, roller shutters, the list goes on.
[automerge]1598861888[/automerge]
I quite often see Fluke MFT's on e-bay being sold by someone in the USA?
 
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Edmond when you have bought up six daughters, nothing can offend you any more, none taken. Oh and as an afterthought you would be proud of me, I have just finished wiring a mosque and I did that in radial sockets exclusively not a ring final circuit in sight. The sad thing is I carefully calculated the load the client listed (very low) and thought radials would be good. I went in one day and an immersion heater had been installed by the plumber so I had to load another 3 kw onto the previously calculated load. I came in the next day and they had bought, not a 2kw oven but 3kw oven, and the gas hob I was told by the plumber could not be fitted as regulations said that no gas hobs are to be allowed any more, so they tried to get me to connect a 3.8 Kw hob as well. The radial was not looking good at this point the ceiling was in and plastered and painted, oh dear!
Isn't it strange how despite asking the customer numerous times for details what is being installed you find that once the site is boarded and skimmed the installation requirements change.
Seems to be more common these days with the choice of hobs and ovens available that range from 2Kw to 10Kw add to that the fact that washing machines and dishwashers only cold fill now and heat the water they use and the customers perception that once you have a cable in position it is a never ending source of power whatever the load
 
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@Maji236

Just for you information, In France plugs are unfused, all sockets are on radials, maximum of twelve sockets in 2.5mm on 20A breaker or eight sockets in 1.5mm on 16A, kitchen supply must have at least six sockets above the worktop, water heaters and white goods have their own supply off the CU plus extract fans, power gates, roller shutters, the list goes on.
[automerge]1598861888[/automerge]
I quite often see Fluke MFT's on e-bay being sold by someone in the USA?
That system sounds very much like what we have here with the exception of the socket circuit wired in 1.5mm and protected by a 16 amp breaker. Do our regs allow for it? Yes. But its marginal. It would have to be a clipped surface cable. Would you see it in practice? Never
 
I have never seen any sockets wired in 1.5mm in France, but I do have very limited access to other peoples installations, say about half a dozen since I retired.
 
In the US, the ring circuit is a totally different concept to me, everything is wired radial.

As I investigated this, it seems it's used to insure proper voltage & amperage depending on where the home is located in proximity to a power station.
Am, I correct?

Stateside, using a ring circuit, the issue would be to make sure it's connected back to the correct leg @ CU (panel)! If not, that'd be a dead short.
the purpose of a ring is to share the load between both legs. e.g. cable rated at 27A (2.5mm in UK) with a ring circuit it almost doubles the current capacity. at the mid point a 30A load will share current 15A each leg. so cable is not overloaded. at other points on the ring, the sharing is proportional to the respective lengths of each leg. near 1 end, the short leg will carry more current than the longer leg, due to lower resistance.
 
You forgot the black pud but I'll let you off ?
but i don't like black pudding. diane abbott is labour. my political leanings are slightly to the right of maggie thatcher, (God bless).
 
Not sure if you were addressing my point or not but the separate circuit requirements for a fixed load over 2KW can be found in Annex 55A, Final Circuit Arrangements (Normative), 4th Ed., page 306
Thanks
In the interests of equality and diversity what about white pudding:D:D
BPM Black Pudding Matters
 

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