Warehouse wiring

[mibh76]

The metal cable fixing regulation is to prevent people and possibly firefighters getting tangled up in wires that may drop down in the case if a fire if only plastic ties are used.

I suggest you stop looking for a way to get around this. The judge will take a dim view of you trying to save money if something goes badly wrong in the future.

I'm looking to just change Flouro tubes fittings to LED equivalents. Feels excessive to pull out whole wiring to do so but I'm hoping for some clear headed, impartial advice ion whether the law says it's necessary rather than anecdotal etc.

Cheers

 

[DPG]

Hi, thanks again and appreciate the advice but would be good if we could not cast aspersions about a persons character, especially coming from a Chelsea fan

Ha, but no, in all seriousness, i'm certainly not looking to cut corners, very happy to pay where necessary but you are incorrect about the cable ties, they've been a perfectly acceptable and widely used form of mechanical fixing up until the most recent regs change, plenty of literature out there about that fact.

I'm hoping to understand whether it is necessary to rip them out (at a cost of 20k) because I want to change the Flouro tubes to LED's... Don't forget, site was Napit certified as safe in 2018..

Ta

Hopefully you are at least going to ensure that some steel cable supports are put in place though? This could probably be done without removing any existing supports or wiring.

 

[mibh76]

Hopefully you are at least going to ensure that some steel cable supports are put in place though?

Absolutely, to be honest I was surprised when I found out cable ties were used in the past so would insist on retrofitting metal fire resistant clips.

 

[DPG]

Absolutely, to be honest I was surprised when I found out cable ties were used in the past so would insist on retrofitting metal fire resistant clips.

Nice one.

 

[Spoon]

Contractor says we need to rip out wiring and start from scratch because:

• Current wire is a grey twin and earth that causes excess smoke and is only suitable for domestic.
• Current wiring is attached to redundant old pipework and ceiling trusses (4mtrs off the ground) by cable ties.
• Some back office wiring is surface mounted and not running inside trunking.

I am not aware of any regs that state that cables in commercial properties must be LSF cables. If there is one I would like to know the reg. Certain companies / countries may spec it for installs, so then you have to use it.
As mentioned above, if the existing cables are to be kept in place then they will to be secured properly with fire proof fixings. You said that you are going to do this, so no problem.
I see nothing wrong with cables being surface mounted in an office, as long as they are again fixed with fireproof fixings and in good condition and don't cause a safety hazard.

Ask the contractor to send you the reg that states twin & earth can't be used in commercial properties.

 

[mibh76]

I am not aware of any regs that state that cables in commercial properties must be LSF cables. If there is one I would like to know the reg. Certain companies / countries may spec it for installs, so then you have to use it.
As mentioned above, if the existing cables are to be kept in place then they will to be secured properly with fire proof fixings. You said that you are going to do this, so no problem.
I see nothing wrong with cables being surface mounted in an office, as long as they are again fixed with fireproof fixings and in good condition and don't cause a safety hazard.

Ask the contractor to send you the reg that states twin & earth can't be used in commercial properties.

Thank you, it's really good to hear you say that and interesting about the LSF, perhaps I'll ask to forward the reg on that and the twin and earth reg to me. If he manages to find one I'll post it up here! ha.
Thanks very much again.

 

[UNG]

Don't forget, site was Napit certified as safe in 2018..

I assume you mean a NAPIT approved contractor issued a certificate that indicated the installation was satisfactory in 2018 with no codes.

You are proposing to carry out some electrical works that should result in another certificate being issued and any inspection and testing will be undertaken to the latest version of the regs so your cable ties will no doubt attract an observation and a coding which may result in an unsatisfactory certificate being issued.
Even if you rely on the 2018 certificate you are only delaying the inevitable remedial work needed to rectify the issue which in a warehouse full of trampolines may be more difficult and more costly than it is now

There is also the 2005 RRO to consider and any inspection that may be carried out on the premises under that act because the premises are open to the public

 

[mibh76]

I assume you mean a NAPIT approved contractor issued a certificate that indicated the installation was satisfactory in 2018 with no codes.

You are proposing to carry out some electrical works that should result in another certificate being issued and any inspection and testing will be undertaken to the latest version of the regs so your cable ties will no doubt attract an observation and a coding which may result in an unsatisfactory certificate being issued.
Even if you rely on the 2018 certificate you are only delaying the inevitable remedial work needed to rectify the issue which in a warehouse full of trampolines may be more difficult and more costly than it is now

There is also the 2005 RRO to consider and any inspection that may be carried out on the premises under that act because the premises are open to the public

Hi, thanks for your thoughts.
Yep, we're switching out the flouro light fittings for LED ones.
We've been told the addition of fire resistant s.steel cable ties will remedy the issues you outlined. Is there some regulation you're referring to that says that wouldn't be sufficient?
Thanks very much.

 

[UNG]

Is there some regulation you're referring to that says that wouldn't be sufficient?

I assume you are referring to the 2005 RRO or to give it it's full title The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 that I mentioned
Any inspection under that order is normally carried out by a fire brigade officer usually by appointment although it is not unknown for them to do an unannounced visit they normally review your fire risk assessment and things like exit routes, fire extinguishers, fire alarm and emergency lighting (if fitted) they also look for any hazards that may be considered to present a risk to firefighters if a fire occurred

 

[mibh76]

I assume you are referring to the 2005 RRO or to give it it's full title The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 that I mentioned
Any inspection under that order is normally carried out by a fire brigade officer usually by appointment although it is not unknown for them to do an unannounced visit they normally review your fire risk assessment and things like exit routes, fire extinguishers, fire alarm and emergency lighting (if fitted) they also look for any hazards that may be considered to present a risk to firefighters if a fire occurred

Hi, thanks again. Sorry, I mean whether you know of any regs that say our remedy of using fire resistant s'steel cable ties to secure the current wiring would not be sufficient? Thanks for the info on the RRO non the less, good to know the Fire Brigade are on top of all of this stuff.

 

[UNG]

Hi, thanks again. Sorry, I mean whether you know of any regs that say our remedy of using fire resistant s'steel cable ties to secure the current wiring would not be sufficient? Thanks for the info on the RRO non the less, good to know the Fire Brigade are on top of all of this stuff.

There is no problem with the stainless steel cable ties it is a widely recognised method of complying with the regs

 

[Vortigern]

On the face of it, 20k sounds a bit steep for 20 lights and a few sockets moving. I can't tell you how many suspended ceilings I have worked in with T&E lashed around looking like a spaghetti smorgasbord. Personally I hate to see it or work with it. If I install it is usually white 20mm trunking klix fittings and singles all affixed to the ceiling. There are advantages to doing that. It allows you to swap out defective lights or replace/re-locate very fast. Aesthetically it is preferable to me. I think we all agree cable ties, T&E is pants. It is a requirement in the regs to A; install in a workmanlike manner B; secure all fittings cables and accessories in a secure manner. So clearly whoever did that work in the first place is a poor workman. Steel ties will remedy those objections but will not acheive the proper craftsmanship encouraged in the regs. Bottom line, no there is no compelling reason or reg that will require you to replace. The sockets I think are a different thing if you are moving them then the cable will be too short if you are moving them away from the supply end. In which case, I guess it would be cheaper to replace the installation again with trunking/singles and have a very robust system much more proof against damage. I presume emergency lighting is already attended to? But if not you can put them into the new LED panels. You can even get remotes to test them weekly now. I don't think you are cutting corners. On a purely pragmatic level I always think it is all very well saying "ah, cables/fire dropping on people" is a bit of a hype as the metal grid of the ceiling will probably hold them up anyway, maybe not!