When will you start back working following the lockdown

[Andy78]

@davesparks

I've just copied and pasted this. Updates dated 27/04


Tradespeople and working in people’s homes
You are a tradesperson carrying out essential repairs and maintenance in people’s homes. You can continue work, providing that you are well and have no symptoms. You should notify all clients in advance of your arrival.

On entry to the home you should wash your hands using soap and water for 20 seconds. You should wash your hands regularly, particularly after blowing your nose, sneezing or coughing, and when leaving the property. Where facilities to wash hands are not available, hand sanitiser should be used, and you should carry this with you at all times.

You should maintain a safe distance (at least 2 metres) from any household occupants at all times, and ensure good ventilation in the area where you are working, including opening the window.

No work should be carried out in any household which is isolating or where an individual is being shielded, unless your work is to remedy a direct risk to the safety of the household, such as emergency plumbing or repair.

No work should be carried out by a tradesperson who has coronavirus symptoms, however mild.


Source url

Reducing the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19, in the workplace

Public health principles for reducing the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19, in the workplace.

www.gov.uk

 

[davesparks]

@davesparks

I've just copied and pasted this. Updates dated 27/04


Tradespeople and working in people’s homes
You are a tradesperson carrying out essential repairs and maintenance in people’s homes. You can continue work, providing that you are well and have no symptoms. You should notify all clients in advance of your arrival.

On entry to the home you should wash your hands using soap and water for 20 seconds. You should wash your hands regularly, particularly after blowing your nose, sneezing or coughing, and when leaving the property. Where facilities to wash hands are not available, hand sanitiser should be used, and you should carry this with you at all times.

You should maintain a safe distance (at least 2 metres) from any household occupants at all times, and ensure good ventilation in the area where you are working, including opening the window.

No work should be carried out in any household which is isolating or where an individual is being shielded, unless your work is to remedy a direct risk to the safety of the household, such as emergency plumbing or repair.

No work should be carried out by a tradesperson who has coronavirus symptoms, however mild.


Source url

Reducing the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19, in the workplace

Public health principles for reducing the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19, in the workplace.

www.gov.uk

Yes, I've seen that now, but if you look here Staying at home and away from others (social distancing) - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others
In paragraph 7 it has very different advice.

We know that your quote is the more recent advice, and the most sensible to follow, but they really should be keeping the advice the same across the whole gov.uk site

 

[Risteard]

Yes, I've seen that now, but if you look here Staying at home and away from others (social distancing) - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others
In paragraph 7 it has very different advice.

We know that your quote is the more recent advice, and the most sensible to follow, but they really should be keeping the advice the same across the whole gov.uk site

Essential repairs are essentially given as an example of works carried out in people's homes.

However there is absolutely no prohibition in law in carrying out any types of works in someone's home - regardless of whether these are essential repairs or not. So you are correct in this.

It's deeply unfortunate that they have decided to issue guidance which contradicts the law - I believe that is wholly wrong of them. But I would imagine that very few would wish to carry out non-essential works in someone's home at this time - in spite of it being completely legal to do so.

 

[davesparks]

Essential repairs are essentially given as an example of works carried out in people's homes.

However there is absolutely no prohibition in law in carrying out any types of works in someone's home - regardless of whether these are essential repairs or not. So you are correct in this.

It's deeply unfortunate that they have decided to issue guidance which contradicts the law - I believe that is wholly wrong of them. But I would imagine that very few would wish to carry out non-essential works in someone's home at this time - in spite of it being completely legal to do so.

I'm not talking about the legalities of any of this, just the guidance published on gov.uk

The guidance I linked to states, as you say, that any work can be carried out in a person's home.
The guidance Andy quoted, also from gov.uk, states that only essential repairs and maintainence should be carried out.

As for the law, yes there is no law relating to covid 19 which prevents you working in people's homes, the guidance would say 'must' where it says 'should' etc if there were.

 

[pirate]

It's all -------s!
i did 2 "essential" repairs last week. all the "criteria" were met...except...how do I know if I have the virus, if i am showing/feeling no signs/symptoms? Maybe i inadvertently carried covid into those homes?
Plus, what do the police know about what is "essential" and what is not? That's not their job. Clearly, taking a cake to someone is hardly essential, but if you have a van load of test gear and tools, they can hardly charge you with non-essential travel, unless they follow you to the job and watch what you do.
It's largely common sense, and adherence to the proper spirit of the rules...I expect most on here know what that means.
It's equally clear that NOBODY knows where this is going yet...any relaxation will have to be decided by best judgement on available evidence...
Incidentally, when a local Costa coffee opened it's doors yesterday the queue of cars was unbelievable...you may have seen it on TV? How can driving out to a coffee shop be considered essential?
Wine bar maybe...

 

[Midwest]

Essential repairs are essentially given as an example of works carried out in people's homes.

However there is absolutely no prohibition in law in carrying out any types of works in someone's home - regardless of whether these are essential repairs or not. So you are correct in this.

It's deeply unfortunate that they have decided to issue guidance which contradicts the law - I believe that is wholly wrong of them. But I would imagine that very few would wish to carry out non-essential works in someone's home at this time - in spite of it being completely legal to do so.

What ‘prohibition in law’ are you referring to?

Ive read some of the Act, its quite long and deals with many things, but I don’t think, I might be wrong, that deals with, in detail in working in people’s homes. Each country in the UK it’s broadly the same, but each has its own regulations (things might be different in Ireland). But there is the guidance on working in people’s homes. If tradespersons and clients choose to ignore, then they may suffer the consequences, whatever that might be.

The police have certain powers, one of which is leaving the place where you live without reasonable excuse. Installing a new circuit, for an indoor sauna, for a domestic client would not be essential IMO, and therefore the travel to & from there, also not essential.

Currently the guidance is only to work in people’s homes, for essential repairs & maintenance. Working in an empty premise, such as a warehouse, would not fall foul of this guidance IMO.

The premise where I work, has stopped all contractors entering, save for emergency repairs. I’ve have been given a letter by my employer, stating my presence in their work place as essential. Some have already had to show their letter to police to prove their travel (to & from work) is essential.

I understand how difficult it is financially, because of the lockdown, where their ones work is dedicated to the domestic area. But the guidance is there for a reason.

Of course this might change soon, because the majority of the population have been adhering to the guidance, and the virus is being beaten.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

The guidance Andy quoted, also from gov.uk, states that only essential repairs and maintainence should be carried out.

It appears the guidance Andy quoted is only guidance for an example scenario:

Overview

This is a list of tailored advice for different scenarios as an example of how social distancing and other measures might be implemented by employers in England to help protect their workforce and customers from coronavirus while still continuing to trade.
...
These are not intended to be comprehensive or to represent every business’s situation, but are illustrative examples.

 

[littlespark]

They all use the words “essential maintenance and repair” suggesting that the electrical installation is existing and workers have to attend to either fix it, test it or otherwise make sure it’s still working as it should.
Doesn’t say anything about new installations
However. Empty premises, no face to face contact... must be safer than standing in queue for Tesco’s.
We are all bending the rules a little here and there.... I go out at least 3 times a day to exercise instead of just once. Walking the dog.... is that against the rules?....

They are talking now of lifting some of the restrictions, which will just cause confusion IMO now that we are used to this.

 

[Risteard]

What ‘prohibition in law’ are you referring to?

Ive read some of the Act, its quite long and deals with many things, but I don’t think, I might be wrong, that deals with, in detail in working in people’s homes. Each country in the UK it’s broadly the same, but each has its own regulations (things might be different in Ireland). But there is the guidance on working in people’s homes. If tradespersons and clients choose to ignore, then they may suffer the consequences, whatever that might be.

The police have certain powers, one of which is leaving the place where you live without reasonable excuse. Installing a new circuit, for an indoor sauna, for a domestic client would not be essential IMO, and therefore the travel to & from there, also not essential.

Currently the guidance is only to work in people’s homes, for essential repairs & maintenance. Working in an empty premise, such as a warehouse, would not fall foul of this guidance IMO.

The premise where I work, has stopped all contractors entering, save for emergency repairs. I’ve have been given a letter by my employer, stating my presence in their work place as essential. Some have already had to show their letter to police to prove their travel (to & from work) is essential.

I understand how difficult it is financially, because of the lockdown, where their ones work is dedicated to the domestic area. But the guidance is there for a reason.

Of course this might change soon, because the majority of the population have been adhering to the guidance, and the virus is being beaten.

I stated NO position in law. So I wasn't claiming that there was one.

In the south of Ireland there is a stipulation in regulations about emergency call-out only for electrical to homes and businesses but that only applies there. That was until the 12th April but currently is in place now until the 18th May as far as I can tell.

The economic carnage will be severe.

 

[Midwest]

I stated NO position in law. So I wasn't claiming that there was one.

I was just replying to what you posted;

’However there is absolutely no prohibition in law in carrying out any types of works in someone's home - regardless of whether these are essential repairs or not. So you are correct in this’.

’It's deeply unfortunate that they have decided to issue guidance which contradicts the law - I believe that is wholly wrong of them’.

Perhaps you were referring to Ireland.

 

[Risteard]

I was just replying to what you posted;

’However there is absolutely no prohibition in law in carrying out any types of works in someone's home - regardless of whether these are essential repairs or not. So you are correct in this’.

’It's deeply unfortunate that they have decided to issue guidance which contradicts the law - I believe that is wholly wrong of them’.

Perhaps you were referring to Ireland.

I think it's very clear what I stated. There isn't a prohibition in law (which you accept is the case). However my point was they shouldn't issue guidance which confuses this.

An example is Boris claiming that it was a "rule" (his words) that you could only go out for one form of exercise per day.

In law I can exercise as many times per day as I wish. (Wales I believe have since legislated for only exercising once per day, but everywhere else his statement is wholly false.)

Jonathan Sumption alluded to all this in his remarks about Derbyshire Police a number of weeks ago.

 

[Vortigern]

Although this is a sidestep, we must not lose sight of the powers granted by parliament to police and others. There are some very questionable powers granted which may infringe on our sovereign rights. Just a slight note of caution, it is not within the British peoples habit to blindly agree/bow to the PTB on any matter. Where it makes sense, fine. But look at social distancing and packed tube trains or certain religious bodies free to congregate while other (esp. Christian) are not allowed and are prosecuted for doing so. These matters need careful scrutiny and monitoring. The rule of law must prevail exercised without fear or favour and it is not seen to be doing so. I refer to a more international scale of this than particularly Britain alone.
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[Risteard]

Although this is a sidestep, we must not lose sight of the powers granted by parliament to police and others. There are some very questionable powers granted which may infringe on our sovereign rights. Just a slight note of caution, it is not within the British peoples habit to blindly agree/bow to the PTB on any matter. Where it makes sense, fine. But look at social distancing and packed tube trains or certain religious bodies free to congregate while other (esp. Christian) are not allowed and are prosecuted for doing so. These matters need careful scrutiny and monitoring. The rule of law must prevail exercised without fear or favour and it is not seen to be doing so. I refer to a more international scale of this than particularly Britain alone.
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I firmly believe that most of these laws enacted throughout most of the world are unconstitutional, illegal, null and void. It is extremely difficult to see how they can possibly be lawful in many of the countries where they have been enacted. Heads will roll for this when their reckoning comes. Of this I have no doubt.

 

[davesparks]

Currently the guidance is only to work in people’s homes, for essential repairs & maintenance. Working in an empty premise, such as a warehouse, would not fall foul of this guidance IMO.

. Some have already had to show their letter to police to prove their travel (to & from work) is essential.

As I mentioned earlier, there are two guidance documents on gov.uk currently, one says essential repairs and maintainenece only in people's homes, the other clearly allows all work in people's homes.

There are two guidance documents currently published on the gov.uk website which contradict each other.

I doubt the police could actually do anything at all if they didn't have a letter with them, apart from maybe a condescending talk.

 

[DPG]

I think it's very clear what I stated. There isn't a prohibition in law (which you accept is the case). However my point was they shouldn't issue guidance which confuses this.

An example is Boris claiming that it was a "rule" (his words) that you could only go out for one form of exercise per day.

In law I can exercise as many times per day as I wish. (Wales I believe have since legislated for only exercising once per day, but everywhere else his statement is wholly false.)

Jonathan Sumption alluded to all this in his remarks about Derbyshire Police a number of weeks ago.

It relies on the common sense of most people. It may not be a legal law, but it is a guidance 'rule' to only go out once a day for exercise. There is no doubt in the intention of it as far as I'm concerned, and I'm certainly not going to try and pick faults with the wording of things like this, despite me being known for being a bit pedantic on some things!

 

[Midwest]

I think it's very clear what I stated. There isn't a prohibition in law (which you accept is the case). However my point was they shouldn't issue guidance which confuses this.

An example is Boris claiming that it was a "rule" (his words) that you could only go out for one form of exercise per day.

In law I can exercise as many times per day as I wish. (Wales I believe have since legislated for only exercising once per day, but everywhere else his statement is wholly false.)

Jonathan Sumption alluded to all this in his remarks about Derbyshire Police a number of weeks ago.

The Coronavirus Act 2020, I suspect has been sat on a shelf somewhere as a contingency for things like this. Not ever aspect will be written into such an emergency Act. Things like the Theft Act have evolved, changed and alter over the years. Hopefully the CA will be short lived, before its removed.

As its a newly convened one, it will not cover every single circumstance, that the great British public feel to challenge it with. Thats why there has been guidance for the police on how to use it, and similarly how the public should follow it. If this thing continues for sometime, then eventually someone will end up in court, for perhaps exercising as many times as they see fit in a day, as an example. It will then be for the Court to decide whether the Act specifies exercise should be restricted to once a day or not, and then set a precedent, to which either side might appeal. After which the final decision might be amended into that Act. Lets hope this doesn't last that long for that to happen.

What I don't understand, is peoples thought processes, where they think its important to isolate themselves in their homes, not having friends or family to visit or visit them, following the Government guidance. But then see it quite reasonable to have a bunch of tradespersons in their homes, to carry out work that is not essential. I really think those people should have a rethink of what they are doing.

Lets remember people are dying of this virus, and a lot more would of died if the guidance had not been followed by the majority.
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As I mentioned earlier, there are two guidance documents on gov.uk currently, one says essential repairs and maintainenece only in people's homes, the other clearly allows all work in people's homes.

There are two guidance documents currently published on the gov.uk website which contradict each other.

I doubt the police could actually do anything at all if they didn't have a letter with them, apart from maybe a condescending talk.

The one you refer to (para 7 is deleted now) mentions repairs and maintenance only. Do people really need that defined further? It also provides links within that document, to the final guidance on 'Trades persons working in peoples home' similar to the ducument linked by Andy.

Again, do people really need to be told whether Tradespersons should allowed or not in their homes to install a new kitchen (for example), when they've spent the best part of 6 weeks, isolating themselves from friends and family. I could say they can't be that dense, but then nothing surprises me about the great British public.

There's been a few FPN handed out already, and I suspect some being questioned about their reason for travel. I've a letter, which I keep with me.
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Although this is a sidestep, we must not lose sight of the powers granted by parliament to police and others. There are some very questionable powers granted which may infringe on our sovereign rights. Just a slight note of caution, it is not within the British peoples habit to blindly agree/bow to the PTB on any matter. Where it makes sense, fine. But look at social distancing and packed tube trains or certain religious bodies free to congregate while other (esp. Christian) are not allowed and are prosecuted for doing so. These matters need careful scrutiny and monitoring. The rule of law must prevail exercised without fear or favour and it is not seen to be doing so. I refer to a more international scale of this than particularly Britain alone.
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Can't comment on the irregularity religious bodies etc, but these powers (temporally I hope) have been granted to help stop the spread of the virus (measures advised by medical practitioners). There have been the odd over zealous instances, but in general its the odd few idiots who just aren't getting the seriousness of this matter, who are getting the enforcement.




Lastly, I'm sorry if I'm getting boring now, but people are dying of this virus, not necessarily the old or the vulnerable. It kills more than the flu, and is preventable if the guidance, at the moment is followed. Don't take it into your own hands, or you might unnecessarily infect someone or your own loved ones.

 

[7029 dave]

We have hit nearly 30K deaths, its serious.

 

[Vortigern]

The cry of emergency is an intoxicating one, producing an exhilarating freedom from the need to consider the rights of others and productive of the desire to repeat it again and again (Dellway Investments and Others v. NAMA and Others [2011] 4 I.R. 1 at 289).

 

[Midwest]

The cry of emergency is an intoxicating one, producing an exhilarating freedom from the need to consider the rights of others and productive of the desire to repeat it again and again (Dellway Investments and Others v. NAMA and Others [2011] 4 I.R. 1 at 289).

You’ll have to précis that for us @Vortigern

 

[Vortigern]

I do not think there is any clear and unambiguous analysis of the 30k deaths. To say all deaths are due to coronovirus as if all other diseases have stopped is preposterous. There are as many versions of the "true" death toll as deaths out there. Don't misunderstand me I am not one for taking risks but I am one for analysing information and statistics and judging the voracity of them. I cannot find any certain picture of the matter re coronavirus deaths. We hear such as 86% of deaths are associated with pre-existing conditions and death certificates are showing they all died of coronavirus whereas this is simply not true they died with coronavirus maybe more like the truth. There is not even any clear non contradictory guidance for crying out loud! As stated the powers granted to the state are draconian to say the least of it. I am as much concerned with this as Covid19. Don't let the "watch this hand, watch this hand" technique blind you to what else is happening.

 

[DPG]

Draconian measures? The deaths would be well above what they are now if there had been no lockdown!

 

[Zerax]

We have hit nearly 30K deaths, its serious.

I'd take the deaths count with a massive pinch of salt... I read that it's based on the death certificate merely mentioning Coronavirus, not that they died because of it. Also, what about the ones that die because of it, but they don't know they had it ?

 

[Vortigern]

You’ll have to précis that for us @Vortigern

I wont insult the intelligence of people on here I am sure it is a plain enough quote detailing the dangers of the powers the government have just handed themselves. This could be come a socialist utopia in a few weeks!

 

[Risteard]

As I mentioned earlier, there are two guidance documents on gov.uk currently, one says essential repairs and maintainenece only in people's homes, the other clearly allows all work in people's homes.

There are two guidance documents currently published on the gov.uk website which contradict each other.

I doubt the police could actually do anything at all if they didn't have a letter with them, apart from maybe a condescending talk.

The cry of emergency is an intoxicating one, producing an exhilarating freedom from the need to consider the rights of others and productive of the desire to repeat it again and again (Dellway Investments and Others v. NAMA and Others [2011] 4 I.R. 1 at 289).

In actual fact there is a case ongoing in Dublin at present about this. The Constitution very clearly defines an "emergency" as war or armed rebellion, and therefore the description of the COVID-19 situation as an emergency to justify emergency powers is - it is contested - unconstitutional.

 

[davesparks]

In actual fact there is a case ongoing in Dublin at present about this. The Constitution very clearly defines an "emergency" as war or armed rebellion, and therefore the description of the COVID-19 situation as an emergency to justify emergency powers is - it is contested - unconstitutional.

That's a great use of time and money during an international pandemic!

 

[Zerax]

Draconian measures? The deaths would be well above what they are now if there had been no lockdown!

Has Sweden seen significantly higher deaths ? They are about 14% the size of us, so to be on a par... 14% of 28,000 deaths that we've had is 4,000... but they've had 2,800 ?? (Quick 2 min calc based on minimal level of searching... someone correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[Risteard]

That's a great use of time and money during an international pandemic!

I believe it's utterly essential.

There's not much view leaving the question of the legality of draconian house arrest orders until after they have been rescinded. They are almost certainly illegal in my view.

 

[Vortigern]

Draconian measures?

Yes draconian measures, as I say while we agree such measures may be necessary do not for a moment think these powers are desirable or wanted on any terms longer than the duration of the emergency. They cannot even be justified under cover of "saving lives" Personally I have no knowledge of any record of the government wanting to save lives and being benevolent. Just because it saves lives don't take your eye off the ball and fall to sleep on this one! The extent of these powers along with the ramifications of other acts such as the Mental Health Act and a raft of others is somewhat alarming this is not just an act to contain. For instance
Section 51 and Schedule 21 of the Act contain certain coercive powers in respect of potentially infectious persons. Under these provisions, Public Health Officers are empowered to require a potentially infectious person to submit to screening and assessment and to impose certain restrictions and requirements on such persons. Constables and Immigration Officers are also empowered to direct or remove a person to a suitable place to undergo screening and to hold them there for a period of time in order to hand them over to a Public Health Officer.
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Don't forget while saving us all from covid19 we are going to be ruined financially! That is quite apart from the above. What happens on a second wave and food shortages occur? Think you will be so happy with the act? Talk about the poisoned chalice!

 

[DPG]

So you think there is an ulterior motive here, and the government has been using Corona to implement more severe mental health act powers? Really? Have you been on Facebook again?

 

[7029 dave]

So you think there is an ulterior motive here, and the government has been using Corona to implement more severe mental health act powers? Really? Have you been on Facebook again?

OR youtube crazy people.

 

[Vortigern]

So you think there is an ulterior motive here, and the government

Most amusing @DPG of you look, I am just sounding a caution regards the act and its sweeping powers and some of the dangers. It is not a conspiracy it is enacted law, a fact! Just because you trust the government does not mean they are trustworthy. Take for instance the Brexit debacle. And what lead up to it. A secession of sovereign powers to a foreign entity, known as treason. Surely you understand that such matters cannot be relegated to tin hat theory/conspiracy these things are in play now it is accomplished already now we need to look at that be careful we are not straying into dangerous territory. I would have expected better than that from you @DPG you to @7029 dave !
Still if you want to call me a conspiracy theorist or crazy fine, but there are brilliant legal minds looking at the facts and law I allude to and some very serious criticisms of this act have already come to light I suggest you educate yourselves instead of guffawing on the sidelines and sniping at such statements

 

[DPG]

Most amusing @DPG of you look, I am just sounding a caution regards the act and its sweeping powers and some of the dangers. It is not a conspiracy it is enacted law, a fact! Just because you trust the government does not mean they are trustworthy. Take for instance the Brexit debacle. And what lead up to it. A secession of sovereign powers to a foreign entity, known as treason. Surely you understand that such matters cannot be relegated to tin hat theory/conspiracy these things are in play now it is accomplished already now we need to look at that be careful we are not straying into dangerous territory. I would have expected better than that from you @DPG you to @7029 dave !
Still if you want to call me a conspiracy theorist or crazy fine, but there are brilliant legal minds looking at the facts and law I allude to and some very serious criticisms of this act have already come to light I suggest you educate yourselves instead of guffawing on the sidelines and sniping at such statements

I apologise for the humorous comment at the end of my post.

 

[7029 dave]

Most amusing @DPG of you look, I am just sounding a caution regards the act and its sweeping powers and some of the dangers. It is not a conspiracy it is enacted law, a fact! Just because you trust the government does not mean they are trustworthy. Take for instance the Brexit debacle. And what lead up to it. A secession of sovereign powers to a foreign entity, known as treason. Surely you understand that such matters cannot be relegated to tin hat theory/conspiracy these things are in play now it is accomplished already now we need to look at that be careful we are not straying into dangerous territory. I would have expected better than that from you @DPG you to @7029 dave !
Still if you want to call me a conspiracy theorist or crazy fine, but there are brilliant legal minds looking at the facts and law I allude to and some very serious criticisms of this act have already come to light I suggest you educate yourselves instead of guffawing on the sidelines and sniping at such statements

Let me tell you of some facts, I lost my friend to this disease, perfectly healthy, had to watch the funeral on live stream, because I could not attend (which upset me),also my other friend in hospital for over 5weeks with corona, he was at deaths door, had a tracheotomy to keep him alive, now a slow but steady recovery.
Don't dare tell me this is all nonsense, its real.
I dont need no education to see what is happening around me.!!

 

[davesparks]

I believe it's utterly essential.

There's not much view leaving the question of the legality of draconian house arrest orders until after they have been rescinded. They are almost certainly illegal in my view.

I don't think you can consider a global epidemic to be anything other than an emergency.

It's the kind of court case that will drag on forever and a day, long after this is over, regardless of when it is started. And to what end?

What draconian house arrest orders? We have been asked to stay at home and follow government guidelines, nobody is under house arrest. We have far lighter restrictions than other countries.

 

[Vortigern]

Don't dare tell me this is all nonsense, its real.

I am truly sorry to hear of your trials and those of your friends. I have not suggested that this is nonsense at any point. There is always more to learn so don't reject the possibility of further education although I realise this is not probably the time. I really went off topic it is true and maybe this is conversation for another day. Just for the record I do not think this is nonsense and have acted with all due caution.

 

[JAWS]

This is a very good read if anyone is interested.

Top Israeli prof claims simple stats show virus plays itself out after 70 days

Isaac Ben-Israel, who is not a medical expert, says analysis worldwide shows new cases peaking after about 40 days, slams economic closures; leading doctor dismisses his claims

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[DPG]

This is a very good read if anyone is interested.

Top Israeli prof claims simple stats show virus plays itself out after 70 days

Isaac Ben-Israel, who is not a medical expert, says analysis worldwide shows new cases peaking after about 40 days, slams economic closures; leading doctor dismisses his claims

www.timesofisrael.com

It's ok him saying it's simple stats, but he has the benefit of hindsight. He is analysing the rise and decline of the virus after it has peaked. I'm not sure he would have been so confident on day 1 of the virus outbreak.

 

[telectrix]

Draconian measures? The deaths would be well above what they are now if there had been no lockdown!

so why is it that Sweden have less deaths per capita than us, and they've had no lockdown?

 

[DPG]

so why is it that Sweden have less deaths per capita than us, and they've had no lockdown?

It's a fair point. I think Sweden's citizens are observing social distancing without lockdown needing to be enforced.

 

[davesparks]

so why is it that Sweden have less deaths per capita than us, and they've had no lockdown?

They probably have better living conditions, better healthcare and a different ethnic makeup of their population, or just a different system for reporting and recording deaths. There could be a whole host of other factors causing the difference.
It could even be that the Swedish government is manipulating the data to make it look like they've got it right.
Have you compared the deaths per capita of every affected country, or are you just comparing the two countries?


Unfortunately, based on current data, this virus appears to affect black and ethnic minority groups worse than others.
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Section 51 and Schedule 21 of the Act contain certain coercive powers in respect of potentially infectious persons. Under these provisions, Public Health Officers are empowered to require a potentially infectious person to submit to screening and assessment and to impose certain restrictions and requirements on such persons.

Yes, because there are a lot of idiots in this country who couldn't be trusted to isolate themselves if they have symptoms these powers are needed.
There are a lot of people in this country who will be bloody minded and just carry on regardless whatever symptoms they have and not care about how many people they might infect. There'll be people who say 'well I feel OK so I'm going out' or 'they can't stop me, I have a right to go out' etc etc whilst they have symptoms of this disease, and if left unchecked will spread it far and wide.

If so many of the population weren't so damn stupid then perhaps we wouldn't have these new laws.

Then of course you have to remember that it was the public/media that were crying out for us to be put in to lock down in tbe first place.
Before schools were closed there was a heck of a lot of public and media pressure to close them, the government were trying to keep them open for as long as possible.

The media was full of people saying that we shoukd have been in lockdown already before it started, plenty of people saying the government were failing because they didn't our us in to lockdown.
And yet now we are in a sort of lockdown everyone is complaining about it again and wanting it ended, challenged in courts.

The government could end the lockdown tomorrow and then face a whole raft of complaints that they've ended it too early and they're just thinking about the money and don't care about people's safety.