Mcb or Rcd Must be all from the same manufacturer

[Michaelp]

Sometimes a panel have many types and names of mcb and rcd.Like hager,abb,legrand etc.

Is this true, That all mcb and rcd on a panel must be from the same manufacturer? If yes then why is that?

 

[Des 56]

Its like a marriage,the only person allowed to put his equipment in the depository is the man ufacturer
Another persons equipment inserted will void the man ufacturer from his responsibility for it

 

[telectrix]

in other words, if a wylex board has hager MCBs fitted in it and it goes up in smoke due to a fault, both manufacturers will wriggle out of responsibility. a bit like insurance companies. any excuse not to pay out and their high powered legal leeches will hang you out to dry.

 

[CrazyScozzese]

It is ridiculous, what is the point of compliance with the 'rigourous' specs of BS when one unit conforming with it is not intercompatible with the other? If you continued down that route, the whole installation would have to use the same cable manufacturer, and be tested with a MFT from them too.

Car manufacturers can no longer cancel warranty if you buy from Europe, get a service at another dealer, or use non-original parts so long as they are to standard, so why should electrical manufacturers get away with this? The parts are either tested to the standard or not.

Mr Angry.

 

[Marvo]

Is this actually part of the regs or is using the same make of MCB's throughout a panel just a precautionary measure?

 

[Richard Burns]

I thought that this was a combination of the regs stating you must follow the manufacturers instructions which state you must use their product, and the type testing of a board being done only with the manufacturers parts and therefore if something goes wrong then the equipment has not been type tested and so is not suitable for the purpose!
All a load of legalese if you ask me.

 

[spark 68]

I always assumed it was due to type testing, ie. the manufacturers have to test their boards to destruction (or send to a Lab which does this), to gain their certification.

As they are type tested as an assembly, obviously with their own brand accessories, then this is what it is certified for, and for nothing else outside of the tested parameters, this could come down to such things as minimum contact areas, or minimum spacing and god knows what else.

edit; Richard got their first, I must type quicker! lol

 

[oldtimer]

I have seen a few MCBs "jammed" in the old MEM boards that are no longer made

 

[telectrix]

I have seen a few MCBs "jammed" in the old MEM boards that are no longer made


:28:nothing that a hammer won't cure, though . :57:

 

[guest119]

Merlin and Square D are identical except for the bit added to the top of the Sq.D.

You can put a Merlin mcb, rcbo, sp or tp into a Sq. D. board by transfering the plastic clip and bus bar stab.

And of course, ditching the add on lets you put the Sq. D. unit into a merlin board.

Done this many times and never seen an issue on the test sheets or installation Cert. relating to it.

Both are Schneidler and possibly from the same factory.

Boyd

 

[Marvo]

Many DIN mount MCB's are made to compatible size specs but admittedly there's a few that aren't compatible with each other. In SA there's no issues about mixing and matching makes within reason but here it's very unusual to use a pre-made panel in a house unless it's a low-cost developement, nearly all our domestic DB's (CU's) are custom built by the installer.

 

[Engineer54]

Many DIN mount MCB's are made to compatible size specs but admittedly there's a few that aren't compatible with each other. In SA there's no issues about mixing and matching makes within reason but here it's very unusual to use a pre-made panel in a house unless it's a low-cost developement, nearly all our domestic DB's (CU's) are custom built by the installer.

What do you mean exactly by ''nearly all our domestic DB's (CU's) are custom built by the installer''?
Can you post any photo's of such a CU/DB??

 

[Marvo]

It's common practice to just purchase the empty enclosure and populate it with MCB's according to the customers/premises requirements.

I'll have a dig around and see if I have any photos of domestic DB's kicking around.

 

[Michaelp]

Thank you for the answers, insurance or compatibility in case of extreme situation is a series reason for always installing the same name.
Is these details under the regulations of the 17 Edition IEE or any government department ? (Like in my country we have the ems (electro-mechanical department) that every few years check electrical-mechanical things on buildings like exits doors/lights,if rcds are installed etc.)
Can they obligate you to do so?

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[haj]

I believe they state different manafactures products may run at different temperatures.

 

[mhar]

Same issue with fitting replacement LED's in GU10 downlightters. I rang the manufacturers of one brand as the instructions stated that only halogen bulbs were to be used. The reason given for that requirement was that they have only been tested (in order to receive the bs compliance certification) with halogens but then added that 'personally I (he) wouldn't worry'!

 

[Marvo]

I can't help thinking that there's no line being drawn here between manufacturers instructions and manufacturers recommendations. Surely common sense would dictate that GU10 halogen lamps can be safely replaced by GU10 LED equivalents without checking with the manufacturers.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Sometimes a panel have many types and names of mcb and rcd.Like hager,abb,legrand etc.

Is this true, That all mcb and rcd on a panel must be from the same manufacturer? If yes then why is that?

There are a number of different types of Distribution Boards.
One type, refered to as a Consumer Unit is type tested, with a selection of devices fitted. It is then rated in it's entirety at 16.5kA, even though the devices fitted may only be rated individually at 3kA, 6kA, 10kA etc.
These types are only rated at 16.5kA if the devices fitted are those used in the type testing. In effect only those of the same manufacturer as manufactured the CU.
Other DBs, such as are often used in industrial and commercial installations, are not type tested, these are not rated at 16.5kA, so there is no restriction against using devices manufactured by someone other than the manufacturer of the DB.

 

[IQ Electrical]

There are a number of different types of Distribution Boards.
One type, refered to as a Consumer Unit is type tested, with a selection of devices fitted. It is then rated in it's entirety at 16.5kA, even though the devices fitted may only be rated individually at 3kA, 6kA, 10kA etc.
These types are only rated at 16.5kA if the devices fitted are those used in the type testing. In effect only those of the same manufacturer as manufactured the CU.
Other DBs, such as are often used in industrial and commercial installations, are not type tested, these are not rated at 16.5kA, so there is no restriction against using devices manufactured by someone other than the manufacturer of the DB.

You'll get a different answer from the manufacturer and I can see the point really:

Take an MCB to BS EN60898, the standard governs a tight specification on curves, ratings etc but the final connection and shape of the device is, within reason, the manufacturers choice, based on the specification of their own enclosure/unit.

Does anyone really think that if another manufacturers device with a 'close match' was fitted to this enclosure/unit, the original manufacturer would still be liable for any subsequent fault/connection problem?

We've all seen it done before but I guarantee that if the unthinkable happened, you'd be in court explaining this to the manufacturers expert witness.

 

[mhar]

Marvo, I only checked because the specification was in bold letters. Common sense said that it would be ok but, for the sake of a phone call, I thought it best to check and to discover why. The uk is a litigious society nowadays.

 

[oldtimer]

I got a call out to a job via a letting agent the DB was a Hager type with cartridge fuse modules in them and yep it was our old freind the GU10 had popped and decided to take the 5 amp fuse with it so I sourced a spare at B&Q at a cost of £3 per fuse (Ibought and left a spare) Letting agent said this is the 3rd time this has happened and the landlord is not pleased I said it is just the type of fuse ie a cartridge if it was a MCB or rewirable protection you would be ok but as the module looks like a MCB I will contact Hager to enquire if I can swap them out with MCBs ie cheaper in the long run and the reply from Hager was you cannot swap them over so what chance has anybody got if even a company like Hager cannot make their cartridge modules the same template as an MCB

 

[Marvo]

One type, refered to as a Consumer Unit is type tested, with a selection of devices fitted. It is then rated in it's entirety at 16.5kA, even though the devices fitted may only be rated individually at 3kA, 6kA, 10kA etc.

Thanks for the explanation, it makesa bit more sense to me now, I didn't realise that the 16.5kA rating of a CU wasn't achieved by using all individual components of 16.5kA rating.

The next question I have is the obvious one, how can any type of distribution network have a higher overall kA rating than the lowest kA rating of any component used in it?

 

[Richard Burns]

Even if the low kA rating device fails badly the total enclosure is enough to ensure that there is no external danger up to the 16.5kA rating.

 

[RWJ]

There's an article on the last page of the current Switched on (Issue 23) from the ESC discussing this very subject.


http://www.beama.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/F24BF81E-39AC-41C6-9557E79834520533

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/public/switched_on/Switched-On-Issue-23.pdf

 

[Engineer54]

There's an article on the last page of the current Switched on (Issue 23) from the ESC discussing this very subject.


http://www.beama.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/F24BF81E-39AC-41C6-9557E79834520533

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/public/switched_on/Switched-On-Issue-23.pdf

See who wrote this article?? The very people that this Sudo Reg serves best. Of course these manufacturers don't want you to have a choice, it doesn't serve there business interests does it!! If they were telling the whole truth here, they would be testing a mixture of protection devices by other manufacturers in there CU's that meet the same KA ratings etc along with all the requirements of the relevant BS standards.... And then reporting just how badly everything turns out!! ...But they don't do they?? Instead they say, ...maybe, could, possibly, may not, and all the other words and phases that legally keep them out of hot water.

 

[Marvo]

I'd also be happier to see an MCB being tested when it's surrounded with other MCB's that are under varying load. That test setup looks iffy to me.

 

[oldtimer]

Funny how light bulbs and plug tops fit any makes but MCB a well you will just have to use ours

 

[CrazyScozzese]

The BS should include provisions that state they housings can dissipate heat generate by a device meeting BS EN xxxxxx.

The BS for the device should say the device does not produce more heat than xzy, which is what a BS EN xxxxxx housing can dissipate.

Easy. Temp curves, number of devices, size of CU. Of course it is, what a scam.

Pass the buck, liability, down the line to the guy at the bleeding edge, who has to take responsibility and/or tell the client that their 10 year old CU is obsolete cos they need a £3 MCB that is no longer available.

Do you have to put a Philips lamp in a Philips luminaire?

 

[Engineer54]

Plus the fact that one manufacturer can make the same but re-badged Protective devices for other manufacturers on exactly the same machines... No-ones going to convince me that they change internal components with re-badged units, can you imagine how much that would actually cost, in down time and re-jigging etc?? No it's just another Scam that your all supposed to just swallow with a smile!!!