3rd amendment (again)

[Adam W]

I understand with the new amendment, new consumer units will have to be made of a 'non-combustible material' (ie metal).
Does this apply to commercial premises or just domestic?
The reason I ask is I have to replace a DB in a semi-enclosed area (basically a gazebo) which was previously metal but the cover has rusted off. Would this now have to be replaced with another metal one, or being a commercial property could it be replaced with a plastic, water resistant one?

On a side note how will this affect the installation of water resistant plastic CUs in domestic properties?

 

[Anthony S]

Its not even come into force yet and get yourself a new book.

 

[Octopus]

Hum... its in the new book but not due to come into "force" until 1st Jan 2016 and its my understanding that its domestic only.... which would suggest industrial CU's never go up in flames!

 

[test electrical]

Not to worry it doesn't say it has to be metal just non-combustible which is fire and temperature rate to BS some thing or another, which is in the quick guide. ALot of the the CUs or already there just getting shot of the cheap **** counterfeit stuff which has flooded the market from china and so on.Any jobs that start after July that will run on more than December have to be done up to this standard.So if you have 200 houses to do on the same contract or a big --- factory get the new Book.ill be getting it in PDF when it comes out so look out for the hyper link.

 

[halseyelectrics]

Hi all,
I would lie know what is needed to compile to 3rd amendment with regards to sealing metal D/B where cables enter ie stuff glands ? acceptable or not

 

[Adam W]

Probably should have posted this in the arms.

 

[Guest125]

Hi all,
I would lie know what is needed to compile to 3rd amendment with regards to sealing metal D/B where cables enter ie stuff glands ? acceptable or not

There is nothing in the new amendment regarding the sealing of holes etc. Standard practice is fine. The new amendment is not there to stop the spreading of fire but only so that the distribution board is non-combustable and will not catch fire.

 

[Adam W]

Hum... its in the new book but not due to come into "force" until 1st Jan 2016 and its my understanding that its domestic only.... which would suggest industrial CU's never go up in flames!

Well it seems to be the general consensus on here that CUs only go up in flames because they're not installed properly, and not because they're made out of plastic.
Reasons for a CU not having been installed properly could be that they were installed by a DIYer, or by a tradesman whose training and level of expertise only extends as far as domestic and is therefore considerably more limited than that of an electrician who does commercial and industrial work.

So, another (potentially serious) problem where we can point the finger of blame squarely at the DIYer/Electrical Trainee.

It will be interesting to see if the likes of B&Q continue selling plastic CUs after the amendment comes into force; wherever there is a market for bending the rules, big companies with big legal departments always seem to work a way around legislation, rendering it a pointless hindrance for those who were doing things properly in the first place.

 

[Anthony S]

There will nothing in the law to prevent any shop selling plastic consumer units and why would there be ? its a free market place.

 

[Plonker 3]

It just becomes a problem when the customer says, well the man in B&Q said its fine for what I need it for.

 

[ruston]

I understand with the new amendment, new consumer units will have to be made of a 'non-combustible material' (ie metal).
Does this apply to commercial premises or just domestic?
The reason I ask is I have to replace a DB in a semi-enclosed area (basically a gazebo) which was previously metal but the cover has rusted off. Would this now have to be replaced with another metal one, or being a commercial property could it be replaced with a plastic, water resistant one?

On a side note how will this affect the installation of water resistant plastic CUs in domestic properties?

They should have a LABEL (sic) on them to say that they may not comply with the wiring regulations from January 2016. (BS 7671 will probably not mean anything to most of the public.)

I still feel it is wrong to be selling equipment with a high installation cost to unsuspecting people, not being sure it will comply in less than a years time.

Adam , I quoted the wrong post lol. It was meant to be your other one. Post 8

 

[Pete999]

Don't think people need to worry it will all be sorted soon enough, won't it? please say yes.

 

[ruston]

I doubt it , they have lost enough credibility now to backtrack. The hole they have dug will just get deeper, never mind they can fill it with thousands of pounds worth of perfectly serviceable consumer units and some unfortunate people's hard earned cash.

 

[Adam W]

They should have a LABEL (sic) on them to say that they may not comply with the wiring regulations from January 2016. (BS 7671 will probably not mean anything to most of the public.)

I still feel it is wrong to be selling equipment with a high installation cost to unsuspecting people, not being sure it will comply in less than a years time.

Adam , I quoted the wrong post lol. It was meant to be your other one. Post 8

Of course as with all amendments they won't be retrospective, so they won't make any existing dangerous CUs any safer, and there will be no requirement to go out and change them.
If plastic CUs can still be used in commercial and industrial situations though, is it appropriate for home DIY shops to carry on selling them to DIYers who are obviously going to be installing them at home?
It was the same with tungsten filament light bulbs - they were 'banned' by the EU, but there was an exception where you could still use rough service bulbs, so the shops just started selling them as that.
I can see it being the same with plastic CUs - B&Q can put 'commercial use only' in small writing in the corner of the box for Mr DIY to ignore and install in his house anyway; it's not as if the electrical police are going to come and kick his door down and carbon date his CU.

 

[ruston]

Bit of a licence for the unprincipled to make a few quid though too.

 

[ferg]

I imagine they would be able to sell them legitimately as they would comply if installed in a fireproof enclosure.

 

[ruston]

I imagine they would be able to sell them legitimately as they would comply if installed in a fireproof enclosure.

Yes, then another can of worms is opened as how you prove it is fireproof. A manufactured enclosure will likely cost more than the new board. Here we go round the Mullberry bush lol.

 

[Pete999]

Ive been an avid reader of the threads regarding non combustible CUs, everyone and their dog are talking about metal CUs, a couple of points.

We aren't what the outcome will be yet, I agree it's looking likely that the domestic CU will be made of metal, which brings me to my second point, how on earth are the powers that be going to get over cable access, we all know, or at least most of us do, the method of cable entry in metal CUs is via knockouts specifically designed for either conduit or cable glands. I can't for the life of me think Mr and Mrs Joe public will put up with conduit protruding from the ceiling to allow cable entry, no they will want a nice neat box on the wall that they can forget about until something goes wrong.

The only way I can see of overcoming this problem, should the decision be made to instal metal CUs would be to have an area, or areas depending upon the fixing and cable entry position, made of some sort of flameproof pliable self sealing material (if one exists) to allow the cables to be pushed through. Or am I living in a fantasy world honest answers only please, I'm in one of my more thoughtful moods.

 

[ferg]

Ive been an avid reader of the threads regarding non combustible CUs, everyone and their dog are talking about metal CUs, a couple of points.

We aren't what the outcome will be yet, I agree it's looking likely that the domestic CU will be made of metal, which brings me to my second point, how on earth are the powers that be going to get over cable access, we all know, or at least most of us do, the method of cable entry in metal CUs is via knockouts specifically designed for either conduit or cable glands. I can't for the life of me think Mr and Mrs Joe public will put up with conduit protruding from the ceiling to allow cable entry, no they will want a nice neat box on the wall that they can forget about until something goes wrong.

The only way I can see of overcoming this problem, should the decision be made to instal metal CUs would be to have an area, or areas depending upon the fixing and cable entry position, made of some sort of flameproof pliable self sealing material (if one exists) to allow the cables to be pushed through. Or am I living in a fantasy world honest answers only please, I'm in one of my more thoughtful moods.

There are already intumescent inserts available for back boxes so it's not such a leap to have a pad with knockouts at the rear of the CU.

 

[ruston]

No doubt, in time ,manufactures will come up with a metal board that will be aesthetically pleasing, they managed ok with some Hi fi',s and the like.

 

[Pete999]

There are already intumescent inserts available for back boxes so it's not such a leap to have a pad with knockouts at the rear of the CU.

Couldn't think of intumescent

 

[ruston]

It's a word that slips the mind easily , I can never remember how to spell it, never mind say it.

 

[Octopus]

I do wonder if the muppets at BEMA and the IET have "clocked" all the threads on this forum, and others, pointing out how blxxdy stupid this reg is.........

As far as I can see, if the rulling is for metal CU's for domestic, all it will do, is drive more business away from the legitimate sparks and into the hands of the trade bodgers - who are probably the cause of the problem in the first place - which wil only make things worse!

 

[ruston]

I do wonder if the muppets at BEMA and the IET have "clocked" all the threads on this forum, and others, pointing out how blxxdy stupid this reg is.........

As far as I can see, if the rulling is for metal CU's for domestic, all it will do, is drive more business away from the legitimate sparks and into the hands of the trade bodgers - who are probably the cause of the problem in the first place - which wil only make things worse!

I wish I could double like your post , you are spot on.

 

[topquark]

The new reg is 421.1.201 and applies to domestic only. The reg applies to CU's and "Similar switchgear". Should compy with BSEN 61439-3 and be "non combustible" (not defined!) OR enclosed in a non combustible enclosure.

 

[GB.Kayak]

Well it seems to be the general consensus on here that CUs only go up in flames because they're not installed properly, and not because they're made out of plastic.
Reasons for a CU not having been installed properly could be that they were installed by a DIYer, or by a tradesman whose training and level of expertise only extends as far as domestic and is therefore considerably more limited than that of an electrician who does commercial and industrial work.

So, another (potentially serious) problem where we can point the finger of blame squarely at the DIYer/Electrical Trainee.

It will be interesting to see if the likes of B&Q continue selling plastic CUs after the amendment comes into force; wherever there is a market for bending the rules, big companies with big legal departments always seem to work a way around legislation, rendering it a pointless hindrance for those who were doing things properly in the first place.

BS 7671 is not legislation ... it is an 'approved' code of practice, compliance with which may keep the HSE off your back in the event that someone is hurt by your workmanship!

 

[Adam W]

BS 7671 is not legislation ... it is an 'approved' code of practice, compliance with which may keep the HSE off your back in the event that someone is hurt by your workmanship!

I didn't say it was, but there was legislation saying tungsten filament bulbs couldn't be sold or fitted, which has been circumvented.

 

[Plonker 3]

I didn't say it was, but there was legislation saying tungsten filament bulbs couldn't be sold or fitted, which has been circumvented.

I thought they could no longer produce them, but were allowed to sell off any existing stock of them

 

[Adam W]

I thought they could no longer produce them, but were allowed to sell off any existing stock of them

They can and do still produce and sell rough service bulbs.

 

[shanky887614]

Ive been an avid reader of the threads regarding non combustible CUs, everyone and their dog are talking about metal CUs, a couple of points.

We aren't what the outcome will be yet, I agree it's looking likely that the domestic CU will be made of metal, which brings me to my second point, how on earth are the powers that be going to get over cable access, we all know, or at least most of us do, the method of cable entry in metal CUs is via knockouts specifically designed for either conduit or cable glands. I can't for the life of me think Mr and Mrs Joe public will put up with conduit protruding from the ceiling to allow cable entry, no they will want a nice neat box on the wall that they can forget about until something goes wrong.

The only way I can see of overcoming this problem, should the decision be made to instal metal CUs would be to have an area, or areas depending upon the fixing and cable entry position, made of some sort of flameproof pliable self sealing material (if one exists) to allow the cables to be pushed through. Or am I living in a fantasy world honest answers only please, I'm in one of my more thoughtful moods.

jigsaw, grommet strip and a tube of fire mastic job done.

 

[shanky887614]

The new reg is 421.1.201 and applies to domestic only. The reg applies to CU's and "Similar switchgear". Should compy with BSEN 61439-3 and be "non combustible" (not defined!) OR enclosed in a non combustible enclosure.

S 476: Part 4: 1970 Non-combustibility test for materials
This test classifies materials as either ‘non-combustible’ or ‘combustible’. It is the most stringent standard for the fire performance of materials and gives a measure of the heat and flames generated by the material under standard heating conditions. Non-combustible materials can be used without restriction anywhere in a building. Their use ensures that hazards due to smoke and toxic gases are minimised and that the fabric of a building will not make a contribution to a fire.

it could be made out of plastic and comply

 

[SirKit Breaker]

It is right, CU/DB's will have to be non combustable from Jan 2016. The way round this is quite easy.

Most Industrial and Commercial are metal clad anyway so no issues here. In domestic most are Plastic, and you will still need to be able to fit them, but you will have to put some sort of metal casing or cover over it that will contain a fire. Remember the regs are guidance, so as long as you do something to contain a fire (remember CU's are made of self extinguishing material) you will be OK.

The manufacturers will come up with a solution to the problem of plastic CU's before January, just like they did when fire rated down lights first appeared.

All material, metal or otherwise, even if they are fire proof will catch fire if they get hot enough. Everything has a flashpoint.

Cheers.............Howard

 

[Knobhead]

Phenolic plastics look them up

 

[Engineer54]

They could always go back to using ''Bakalite'' as the material for CU enclosures (circ old wylex 3036 CU's) and far stiffer too. Which i think is a Phenolic plastic compound.

Still can't see what's wrong with the current CU plastics that's used throughout the EU. So much for harmonisation!!

 

[Knobhead]

The old Wylex 3036 boards is the reason I was looking for phenolic plastics.

Since this palaver about fireproof started I’ve been wracking my brain for the type of plastic used. I had a brain fart a couple of days ago and finally remembered.

Everyone moans about “flimsy” plastic boards, depending on the filler used in the plastic they can be made rigid but also fragile. Although to be honest I’ve never seen the main body of a Wylex board broken. The covers were easy to break if you didn’t know how to remove the centre section when fitting MCB’s.

 

[the pict]

Hardly a consolation if ouo return home from a week end in the Wolds to find a smoking hole where your house should be to find an astonishingly intact CU with a metal label saying "Conforms to AMd3"
Pict

 

[Snapester]

Don't also forget that all fixings cables ties, trunking etc will need to be non combustable material also. Sounds like so much fun! Pricing jobs is going out the window!

 

[shanky887614]

why dont we all wire the incomer through a contacter linked to the fire alarm, alarm goes off, power goes off

with a heat detector inside the db

 

[telectrix]

having given the matter considerable thought, i have , at great expense, purchased a new type of plastic, imported from Holland. experimentation with this material is ongoing, but initial results look promising. a blowlamp applied will not cause ignition: a sample is at present undergoing testing in a pottery kiln, heating up to 1500deg.C. so far , no signs of ignition. there is only one drawback to be addressed so far, and that is that , under extreme heat, the product gives off a rather unpleasant odour. for those of you who are waiting with bated breath, the product under test is ..................... edam. yup. let's make CUs from cheese.

 

[Silly Sausage]

...at great expense, imported from Holland ...

You forgot to check inside!
Did your kiln get extremely stoned?