Electric vehicle charging points

[LightGEN]

This may or may not be quite the right forum for this particular discussion, but given the topic's links to green transport, on balance, I've decided to go with it...

Clearly it's very early days for this field but I'm a firm believer in trying to view new markets at an early point. Given the current up and down nature of the PV industry, I've been looking at add-ons which fit well with what we do - charging points seem a good fit, so I've had some discussions with a number of organisations on the subject. Today, one of the requirements which suppliers of this equipment have, for installers, is a national coverage. So I'm interested in gathering together a group of contacts who might be interested in cooperating in this area.

If this sounds like something of interest please feel free to message me off-forum with details of who you are, where you're based, what your coverage area is, some contact details (which won't be used for enything other than discussion around this topic)

Roger

 

[i=p/u]

Are the charging points the size of a car wash, like i seen on the news????

 

[LightGEN]

Sorry, somehow, I managed to send a part of the message before I'd completed it!

No - these are smaller solutions which would install, say, on the wall of a homeowner's garage or in a carpark.

 

[Gavin A]

interested, and have a potential customer discussing having us install an EV charging point for them.

Query for you - we've installed 47kWp on sunny tripower inverters at this site, and was wondering about the potential to use the relay function to trigger a 'solar boost' circuit within the charging point for periods when there is excess solar generation. Do you happen to know if any of these units would be capable of having a boost circuit as well as a standard lower charge rate?

 

[Fin170]

I've thought about dropping a radial in ready for a charging point. Dedicated circuit, 32A radial, double pole isolator close to the front door and have a two gang socket left outside (with a bit more tail inside it than usual) until the charging unit is ready to be put up (been told they're around £400?)

 

[Glen Powell]

Of a similar ILK, we are selling electric cars (not on our website yet) and see the potential in charge points, it is just a shame they do not have universal connections. Even manufacturers change their connections from model to model, I thought like OBD2 the manufacturers would got it right this time

 

[SibertSolar]

Yep, this is a subject that is gaining a lot of interest from many areas. We're looking into it from a Type-B RCD point of view. Some manufacturer's are designing in-car charging systems that don't rely on the complex external charging point. Others are aiming towards the external charge point being discussed here. Glen is right - until they standardise on the connectivity/design it will be difficult to provide a cure-all solution but it's certainly an interesting growth area.

 

[LightGEN]

.... it is just a shame they do not have universal connections. Even manufacturers change their connections from model to model, I thought like OBD2 the manufacturers would got it right this time

The European automobile manufacturers trade association, the ACEA, has agreed a standard for charging plugs and other other aspects of the vehicle charging process and infrastructure, which it is recommending to manufacturers and standards bodies for adoption globally. As I noted in my initial post, this is going to take a while!

 

[Gavin A]

oh, are they not just planning to use standard C-Form sockets for this then?

I'd naively assumed that was what they'd do, then have the charge control mechanism in car.

 

[The Solar King]

Also been looking at this due to previous career in motor industry and numerous contacts still in the business.

This could be an opportunity, but be aware there are more charging points in London than electric vehicles. Also look at the deal British Gas has stitched up. Forgetting the technical and standards issues, you may find the market is not there.

As always her majesties government is looking to spoil the party with their budget announcement of company car tax on electric vehicles I think from 2013.

Yes, it's a great idea, but proceed with caution. I for one will not get involved if all it means is working for nothing

 

[LightGEN]

oh, are they not just planning to use standard C-Form sockets for this then?

I'd naively assumed that was what they'd do, then have the charge control mechanism in car.

Today, UK electric vehicle charging cables are fitted with, either, a standard 13A domestic plug, or, a standard CeeForm plug for connection to the charging supply source. The ACEA has proposed that vehicles produced from 2017 should have a 'Type2/Type2 combo' connector for the vehicle and supply ends. This type of connector supports standard AC, fast AC and DC charging solutions, as required by the vehicle. I believe this is the type of plug suggested - File:VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2-plug.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[LightGEN]

Also been looking at this due to previous career in motor industry and numerous contacts still in the business.

This could be an opportunity, but be aware there are more charging points in London than electric vehicles. Also look at the deal British Gas has stitched up. Forgetting the technical and standards issues, you may find the market is not there.

As always her majesties government is looking to spoil the party with their budget announcement of company car tax on electric vehicles I think from 2013.

Yes, it's a great idea, but proceed with caution. I for one will not get involved if all it means is working for nothing

Indeed, it's very early days.

To be frank, given the state of technology today, I don't see company car drivers being where the market is for EV. The medium term target market has to be those drivers who make short journeys - school run, shopping trips, folks who work in a fixed and reasonably local location (offices, factories, shops, etc). Of course, there's also a cost element - EV are considerably more costly that fluid fueled vehicles at the moment, volume will clearly address that to a large degree - I see no real reason why an EV should cost any more than a fluid fueld vehicle, given similar vehicle production levels.

 

[Glen Powell]

I am sure the costs will be subsidised in the future along with cost saving benefits i.e. Toll Roads, Congestion Charges, Car Tax, Possibly Free Charging points, etc, etc.

I would assume local authorities and the like will be given budget to try and get their employees to drive electric cars, Maybe they will be added into BREAM and therefore subsidy given for outlay of charge points.

 

[LightGEN]

I am sure the costs will be subsidised in the future along with cost saving benefits i.e. Toll Roads, Congestion Charges, Car Tax, Possibly Free Charging points, etc, etc.

As things stand the state makes a £5000 contribution towards purchase cost of an EV, the vehicles remain expensive never the less. One of the manufacturers is introducing a scheme where you purchase the vehicle but lease the battery, which brings the vehicle cost down to around £16K (after the £5K 'grant'). The battery lease cost is around £1K/year, so, overall this purchasing model makes the cost broadly the same as for a fluid fueld vehicle.

I would assume local authorities and the like will be given budget to try and get their employees to drive electric cars, Maybe they will be added into BREAM and therefore subsidy given for outlay of charge points.[/QUOTE]
Currently, a scheme called 'Plugged-in-places' is operating around 7 areas of the UK. Within these areas, grants are available to local authorities, covering 75% of the installation cost of charging points. Businesses are entitled to a 50% grant.

 

[Glen Powell]

From what I here though battery lease prices will come down, with service centres swapping out the batteries at points along the journey to enable you to travel further.

Battery leases are quite new and it is possible they will fluctuate with usage both in milage and charging method (i.e. Excessive Boost Charging will have a premium). The EV is in its early days and prices will come down maybe sooner than we all think.

 

[LightGEN]

From what I here though battery lease prices will come down, with service centres swapping out the batteries at points along the journey to enable you to travel further.

I'm sure battery prices will come down significantly, probably to the point where leasing wouldn't be a consideration. The battery swapping station concept is also out there, though some form of battery standardisation and an easy approach to swapping the battery will be required for this to be workable, I'm less convinced that this idea will fly...time will tell.

Battery leases are quite new and it is possible they will fluctuate with usage both in milage and charging method (i.e. Excessive Boost Charging will have a premium). The EV is in its early days and prices will come down maybe sooner than we all think.

Consumer uptake is clearly the key to all of this.

 

[The Solar King]

The sums given out to local authorities are paltry. This whole thing may end up like PV - viable when the price of fossil fuel is so high it is the only viable alternative. This impoverishment of the masses seems to be the cornerstone of Government policy.

I would love to see EV take off. However, caution is required. If this ends up as a rich person's toy, it will not lead to a mass market. In terms of carbon reduction, whilst EV is more efficient, there is little point simply moving emmissions from the exhaust pipe to the power station.

The British Gas deal in London will effectively exclude you from the market.

 

[Glen Powell]

However if companies can invest in charging pods that are near self sufficient then this could be a consideration and would not require mass usage of power from the powerstations.

Our company is working on the maths of this at the moment so cannot say if it is viable or not yet.

 

[Glen Powell]

The British Gas deal in London will effectively exclude you from the market.

British Gas usually sub things like this out you just need to be on their preffered supplier list

 

[Fin170]

In terms of carbon reduction, whilst EV is more efficient, there is little point simply moving emmissions from the exhaust pipe to the power station.

Alternately, moving exhaust fumes from city centres out to remote locations or to N/A emissions sources (solar, nuclear etc). Public health, cancerous fumes and all that

Plus the clarkson logic misses that central generation is considerably more efficient than several smaller generators scattered about the place (part of the reason the individual does not have a generator out back and AC won the war of currents)