Flexible Conduit (N.Bundy job)

[Mike Johnson]

Interesting posts, in Europe where flexible conduit is used extensively there is legislation that does not allow filling a conduit to over 2/3rds of its cross section, this equates to a maximum of 3 x 2.5 singles in a 20mm flexible, I don't know the c/c of T&E, but think it would probably come to more than a 2/3rds of the internal area of a 20mm flexible at 52mm2, anyone know the official cross sectional area of T&E?

 

[nicebutdim]

Plastic clips, and the passing of buckle clips, has in my opinion caused the trade to turn into a bash it in and ignore the ascetics of installation work...

The old house I grew up in was wired in the 50s with VIR and buckle clips. None of that wiring was on display, but the installers didn't care that no one would see it - everything was carefully clipped with fastidious neatness and the pride taken in that work was clear to see. Some later additions were also installed with thought and care, but much of the later wiring was thrown in without care for anything other than getting paid and getting out.

 

[Dustydazzler]

containment was designed to house single insulated cable ?

twin and earth was designed with its own incorporated an outer sheath so to be ‘clipped direct’

so why are we bothering to contain twin and earth cable

???

 

[Pete999]

containment was designed to house single insulated cable ?

twin and earth was designed with its own incorporated an outer sheath so to be ‘clipped direct’

so why are we bothering to contain twin and earth cable

???

Time is money DD

 

[Dustydazzler]

Time is money DD

does it really take that much longer to neatly clip 10 cables rather than struggle to ram it throughplastic conduit

 

[7029 dave]

containment was designed to house single insulated cable ?

twin and earth was designed with its own incorporated an outer sheath so to be ‘clipped direct’

so why are we bothering to contain twin and earth cable

???

I loved surface work clipping cables, always bought white t&e, which was used a lot.

 

[Pete999]

does it really take that much longer to neatly clip 10 cables rather than struggle to ram it throughplastic conduit

Depends on the type of clip DD, they don't teach proper clipping these days at instant Sparky School, sadly bo longer considered a necessary skill, just pay up and pass the tests.

 

[nicebutdim]

containment was designed to house single insulated cable ?

twin and earth was designed with its own incorporated an outer sheath so to be ‘clipped direct’

so why are we bothering to contain twin and earth cable

???

Might be considered neater. Could take up less space if properly thought out. Allows for future boarding of that garage ceiling.

It's not necessary, but might be something to discuss with a customer when quoting for a job. Some will be happy with clipped cables, but others might prefer paying more to place them out of sight.
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Depends on the type of clip DD, they don't teach proper clipping these days at instant Sparky School, sadly bo longer considered a necessary skill, just pay up and pass the tests.

I doubt it's quite so clear cut. Certainly an apprenticeship should provide more opportunities to learn a craft, but plenty of people time served tradespeople don't seem to care much for attention to detail. People will either have the inclination to do things to a decent standard or they wont. The rough electrical work I grew up around was installed long before faster routes were available into the trade.

 

[ipf]

containment was designed to house single insulated cable ?
twin and earth was designed with its own incorporated an outer sheath so to be ‘clipped direct’
so why are we bothering to contain twin and earth cable
???

Neatness and time saving.
T+E was designed to be clipped direct but why should it be?
What about entering or exiting dado trunking with cavity walls, for example?
In this (through garage) situation, with all outgoing cables from a CU, I'd have installed plastic trunking thirty years back.......T+E or not.
It's a matter of looking at the best possible method of rearranging wiring routes in an existing property.... not wiring from scratch, when various means of clipping could well have provided the best method.
We still see methods for improving aesthetics from the 1920's even,......remember capping and casing?

 

[MJPD29]

The old house I grew up in was wired in the 50s with VIR and buckle clips. None of that wiring was on display, but the installers didn't care that no one would see it - everything was carefully clipped with fastidious neatness and the pride taken in that work was clear to see. Some later additions were also installed with thought and care, but much of the later wiring was thrown in without care for anything other than getting paid and getting out.

The house I currently live in still has all that old wiring beneath the stairs to where it would have connected the the board at one stage and its like a work of art i dont can't bring myself to remove it

 

[davesparks]

containment was designed to house single insulated cable ?

twin and earth was designed with its own incorporated an outer sheath so to be ‘clipped direct’

so why are we bothering to contain twin and earth cable

???

Containment was/is designed to house cables, all types of cables, not just single insulated cables.

Why not put T&E in containment where there is a lot of it going the same way?

Lots of cables incorporate an outer sheath allowing clipped direct installation but are installed in or on containment regularly.
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The old house I grew up in was wired in the 50s with VIR and buckle clips

Which proves that cowboys were at large in the 50's just as much as they are today.
VIR was/is single insulated cable and should always have been inside conduit/trunking, clipping it direct was no more compliant then than singles clipped direct woukd be today.

The predecessors to modern T&E were suitable for clipped direct installation such as lead sheathed rubber insulated cable or TRS sheathed rubber insulated cable.

 

[pirate]

I don't consider myself as old-fashioned, but i do like to use buckle clips in certain situations, and the installation can look very neat-plus the clips won't melt like plastic ones in a fire. I also like the range of sizes, which caters for different sizes of cable.
My choice for clipped direct T&E would be Linian clips which are even less obtrusive than buckle clips, and drilling the holes is less of a stress on the substrate than hammering, if for example you are clipping to battens between joists/rafters where the battens flex near the mid-point. On plasterboard, a neat drilled hole and a Linian clip will provide a dent-free finish (compared with my rather poor hammer accuracy) and a firmer fix too, and on brick it is easier than hammering in a nail for the plastic clips and provides a neater finish, imho.

 

[Pete999]

I don't consider myself as old-fashioned, but i do like to use buckle clips in certain situations, and the installation can look very neat-plus the clips won't melt like plastic ones in a fire. I also like the range of sizes, which caters for different sizes of cable.
My choice for clipped direct T&E would be Linian clips which are even less obtrusive than buckle clips, and drilling the holes is less of a stress on the substrate than hammering, if for example you are clipping to battens between joists/rafters where the battens flex near the mid-point. On plasterboard, a neat drilled hole and a Linian clip will provide a dent-free finish (compared with my rather poor hammer accuracy) and a firmer fix too, and on brick it is easier than hammering in a nail for the plastic clips and provides a neater finish, imho.

Worse than the plastic jobbies imho.

 

[pirate]

Pete999, plastic jobbies are better than both buckle and Linian?
Or better than buckle?
Or better than Linian?
Why not use fire-proof clips everywhere, instead of those ugly plastic jobbies?
I'm not criticising your opinion, just curious and keen to hear others.

 

[davesparks]

Worse than the plastic jobbies imho.

Why? Just because they are new and therfore can't be as good as anything old? Or do you have another reason?

 

[UNG]

Might be considered neater. Could take up less space if properly thought out. Allows for future boarding of that garage ceiling.

It's not necessary, but might be something to discuss with a customer when quoting for a job. Some will be happy with clipped cables, but others might prefer paying more to place them out of sight.

Is it not normal to discuss with the customer what they actually want including how visible cable runs will be routed?

I doubt it's quite so clear cut. Certainly an apprenticeship should provide more opportunities to learn a craft, but plenty of people time served tradespeople don't seem to care much for attention to detail. People will either have the inclination to do things to a decent standard or they wont. The rough electrical work I grew up around was installed long before faster routes were available into the trade.

I'm wondering how long you think quick routes into the trade have been around back when I started it wasn't uncommon for electrician's mates to be made up to electricians having done 10 - 15 years as a mate. The government skill centres "trained" electricians in six months back in the late 70's until they were privatised in the 90's. So it is not as new as you possibly think

 

[ipf]

I'm wondering how long you think quick routes into the trade have been around back when I started it wasn't uncommon for electrician's mates to be made up to electricians having done 10 - 15 years as a mate. The government skill centres "trained" electricians in six months back in the late 70's until they were privatised in the 90's. So it is not as new as you possibly think

It was nothing like as common as it is today, though.
As regards 'mates', their were occasional labourers who worked their way up.....and plenty I knew were good, in different sections of the trade, with their work and experience. I'm sure a hell of a lot of 'em would sail through today's requirements to be 'qualified'.
Just do a regs course and there you go....if you can read and write

 

[nicebutdim]

Which proves that cowboys were at large in the 50's just as much as they are today.
VIR was/is single insulated cable and should always have been inside conduit/trunking, clipping it direct was no more compliant then than singles clipped direct woukd be today.

The predecessors to modern T&E were suitable for clipped direct installation such as lead sheathed rubber insulated cable or TRS sheathed rubber insulated cable.

To be clear, the only cable that was accessible was in the roof space. I may be wrongly labelling it as VIR as it had an outer sheath over the insulation, but both layers were some form of rubber.

 

[UNG]

Just do a regs course and there you go....if you can read and write

I thought it was read and guess, multiple choice gives you a one in four chance of getting the right answer

 

[nicebutdim]

I don't consider myself as old-fashioned, but i do like to use buckle clips in certain situations, and the installation can look very neat-plus the clips won't melt like plastic ones in a fire. I also like the range of sizes, which caters for different sizes of cable.
My choice for clipped direct T&E would be Linian clips which are even less obtrusive than buckle clips, and drilling the holes is less of a stress on the substrate than hammering, if for example you are clipping to battens between joists/rafters where the battens flex near the mid-point. On plasterboard, a neat drilled hole and a Linian clip will provide a dent-free finish (compared with my rather poor hammer accuracy) and a firmer fix too, and on brick it is easier than hammering in a nail for the plastic clips and provides a neater finish, imho.

Those clips from Linian are interesting and a very simple, yet practical design. If they weren't so hugely expensive, compared to traditional clips, they'd probably be well on their way to leading the market.

 

[pirate]

Davesparks, I agree that new isn't always worse...or better...but I also accept that cost can be an issue too. If you have 1000 plastic clips in stock, and the cabling is not going in an area where premature failure is a problem, why buy new stuff that is (usually) more expensive...so pete has a point there maybe. if the tried and trusted does the job, go with it.
for me, I always look for new stuff, because i like it! Cost is not an issue for the work I do (within reason, obviously) so i like to try stuff that does the job, and does it faster, and more easily. I love Quickwire for lighting...it is so fast, it does the job, but it is much more expensive than other methods...however, if I have to return sometime to extend a circuit, I know I will be in and out very quickly, which is a bonus, and if the next guy doesn't like it/has never used it, then that's his problem, not mine...at least he has a decent start, with cables easily identified etc.
I do like buckle clips...there's something about them that just appeals to me, and i will happily use them where the circumstances dictate...same with Linian...I love the speed and simplicity, but I am not a professional, so I explore the market constantly just to find stuff that will do a proper job that will keep the client happy and safe. I have used D-Boxes, choc-bloc, din rail terminals, whatever...but I always feel that if you add convenience and a touch of professionalism, the client will benefit, and so will I.

 

[nicebutdim]

Is it not normal to discuss with the customer what they actually want including how visible cable runs will be routed?

I've no idea, but going back to the OP it's likely that the customer in question wasn't asked about routing back to their CU.

I'm wondering how long you think quick routes into the trade have been around back when I started it wasn't uncommon for electrician's mates to be made up to electricians having done 10 - 15 years as a mate. The government skill centres "trained" electricians in six months back in the late 70's until they were privatised in the 90's. So it is not as new as you possibly think

That I didn't know and some of the work I had in mind dates back to the 70s.

 

[pirate]

nicebutdim, I hear what you are saying...but in the overall scheme of cost is a tenner on a job really a problem? Given you might save the client an hour of labour...or is it save time AND charge the client. I'm sure that isn't what you were suggesting, naturally, but it's a balance.
It's the same with Quinetic...do the job in a hour, costs the client £30 more, but you are away quickly and putting an extra job in that day, so the profit is actually up.
A plumber, and I use the word loosely, I once employed, used plastic pipe throughout, but he bitched about the cost of the "inserts" or "pipe supports" at 1p each...I now have no confidence in the job he did because i worry that he didn't use them. If he had added a tenner to his bill to cover the cost, no problem...now I am faced with lifting 2 tiled floors to check and sort. It's not all about cost, it's about using what is right for the job, demonstrating that and standing by your work, knowing you used the right and best techniques and materials.
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Addendum: Nicebutdim, thanks for your like...I agree the Linian clips are quite expensive, but I replied prior to your response being visible to me! (I'm a bit slow!)
I just think cost is often secondary to speed and ease of installation.
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and thank you for your second "like" too!

 

[nicebutdim]

nicebutdim, I hear what you are saying...but in the overall scheme of cost is a tenner on a job really a problem? Given you might save the client an hour of labour...or is it save time AND charge the client. I'm sure that isn't what you were suggesting, naturally, but it's a balance.
It's the same with Quinetic...do the job in a hour, costs the client £30 more, but you are away quickly and putting an extra job in that day, so the profit is actually up.
A plumber, and I use the word loosely, I once employed, used plastic pipe throughout, but he bitched about the cost of the "inserts" or "pipe supports" at 1p each...I now have no confidence in the job he did because i worry that he didn't use them. If he had added a tenner to his bill to cover the cost, no problem...now I am faced with lifting 2 tiled floors to check and sort. It's not all about cost, it's about using what is right for the job, demonstrating that and standing by your work, knowing you used the right and best techniques and materials.

I agree with your thinking and broadly share it, but will most electricians? I have no idea - most likely some will and some wont.

You mentioned Quickwire junctions in an earlier post, which cost a couple of £ more than Hagar junctions or a Wagobox, but in other threads I remember several comments stating that Quickwire junctions were to expensive to consider. That and needing a tool to remove cables. Some people embrace change, some resist and others will look at what is the most practical option for each situation.

Linian are probably in a delicate situation and realise that pricing may be an issue. They're a small company and, even if using overseas manufacturers, may be at a stage where limited budgets dictate order sizes and therefore price. I'd like to see them do well and success may also lead to more competitive pricing. They have some interesting products.

 

[7029 dave]

I hate the word containment, but IMO full conduit and trunking systems were designed for singles, having said that I put MICC cables in trunking on a job because I was too lazy to go the surface route, and if anybody put t&e in a full conduit system I would laugh at them its too bloody rigid for starters, its designed for stranded cores.
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Is it not normal to discuss with the customer what they actually want including how visible cable runs will be routed?



I'm wondering how long you think quick routes into the trade have been around back when I started it wasn't uncommon for electrician's mates to be made up to electricians having done 10 - 15 years as a mate. The government skill centres "trained" electricians in six months back in the late 70's until they were privatised in the 90's. So it is not as new as you possibly think

I do not recall that, 6months to train just saying.

 

[ipf]

Today, on so many occasions, it's all about meeting regulations. If you're clipping a cable or installing a works lighting system, the standard of work isn't appreciated to the same extent, resulting in cheaper and inferior materials and labour, meeting the requirements according to regulation and H+S.
Sometimes, higher class work is required, which separates the wheat from the chaff. More and more, it's become the exception to the rule.
An example is a client who wants things top class, done correctly with everything spot on, will not tolerate anything in view be it in kitchens, gardens, swimming pools or whatever but is willing to pay for it.

Anything is possible.....but you wouldn't think so.
......and people are being taught to install to regulation standard only....not to that of a true, highly skilled trades person.
Although it's very important, it's not all about everything testing OK.

 

[Midwest]

You lot have been o lockdown too long. Get a life.

 

[davesparks]

I hate the word containment, but IMO full conduit and trunking systems were designed for singles,

The word containment used to annoy me too, but I guess I have just got used to it over the years.

Yes conduit and trunking were originally designed for singles many many years ago, but that doesn't mean that's the only thing they can, or should, be used for.

 

[7029 dave]

You lot have been o lockdown too long. Get a life.

I am going back Monday Noooooo and me trousers dont fit me. lol

 

[nicebutdim]

I've used the term containment repeatedly in this thread as it's the only suitable collective noun I could think of

 

[7029 dave]

I've used the term containment repeatedly in this thread as it's the only suitable collective noun I could think of

Well stop it nicey lol

 

[Leesparkykent]

I’ve watched a few of N Bundys YouTube videos and from what I’ve seen he seems a good domestic electrician. Someone like him would be ideal for knocking out new builds to a good standard and at a good pace....If he worked for you, he would definitely earn you a few quid. However l, I do think using the kopex, like he has was a poor choice. I bit of tray or trunking would of done the job or drilled the joists.

 

[Dustydazzler]

The word containment used to annoy me too, but I guess I have just got used to it over the years.

Yes conduit and trunking were originally designed for singles many many years ago, but that doesn't mean that's the only thing they can, or should, be used for.

steel conduit and galvanised trunking should really be used exclusively for singles imo As it was originally intended...
plastic conduit , kopex and plastic trunking can really be used for anything just to provide additional mechanical protection / cable containmen.
i do feel it has become almost frowned upon to clip cables on the surface , But imo there is nothing wrong with clipped surface

 

[7029 dave]

steel conduit and galvanised trunking should really be used exclusively for singles imo As it was originally intended...
plastic conduit , kopex and plastic trunking can really be used for anything just to provide additional mechanical protection / cable containmen.
i do feel it has become almost frowned upon to clip cables on the surface , But imo there is nothing wrong with clipped surface

Its like most practises, that have become almost extinct in this industry, maybe too labour intensive.

 

[davesparks]

steel conduit and galvanised trunking should really be used exclusively for singles imo As it was originally intended...

So we should all be installing VIR singles? After all that is what galvanised trunking and conduit was originally intended for, PVC insulated cables hadn't been invented.

Why shouldn't we be able to put any cable type in galvanised conduit or trunking? If something needs the mechanical protection of steel conduit then put it in steel conduit, it doesnt matter whether is is singles or anything else.

 

[ipf]

So we should all be installing VIR singles? After all that is what galvanised trunking and conduit was originally intended for, PVC insulated cables hadn't been invented.
Why shouldn't we be able to put any cable type in galvanised conduit or trunking? If something needs the mechanical protection of steel conduit then put it in steel conduit, it doesnt matter whether is is singles or anything else.

I suppose minds could become a bit clouded dependant upon experience but one thing is for sure....you're absolutely spot on with that one.

 

[Dustydazzler]

So we should all be installing VIR singles? After all that is what galvanised trunking and conduit was originally intended for, PVC insulated cables hadn't been invented.

Why shouldn't we be able to put any cable type in galvanised conduit or trunking? If something needs the mechanical protection of steel conduit then put it in steel conduit, it doesnt matter whether is is singles or anything else.

i can’t disagree with that , I’m just saying steel conduit was designed for single cables to be pulled through it...

 

[ipf]

i can’t disagree with that , I’m just saying steel conduit was designed for single cables to be pulled through it...

Same with galv trunking, eh?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Same with galv trunking, eh?

again , I’m not saying don’t use it to contain various varieties of cables

I’m just saying it’s primary function was to contain single cables & should remain its primary function

 

[davesparks]

again , I’m not saying don’t use it to contain various varieties of cables

I’m just saying it’s primary function was to contain single cables & should remain its primary function

It's primary function was, and still is, to provide good mechanical protection to cables. Other functions include providing a rewireable system.

Yes when it was first used it was only for single core cables, but only because that's all they had at the time.

These days we have a variety of cables which need that level of protection, including but not limited to, CAT5/6, sensor cables, fire alarm cables, telecoms, control systems cables, fibre optics.

 

[gazdkw82]

I think there is a training issue here too. When I did my training at college there wasnt the much emphasis on the visual aesthetics of clipping and most of it was just based on "it looks passable"

It was only through watching GSH electrical videos that I realised there was methods and guidance to obtaining perfect bends/straight runs/ clipping distances evertime.

I still haven't done that much clipping work or containment but when I have I now try and spend time doing it with pride and using the guidance.

I recently clipped a 1mm HO7RNF around the outside of a friends house for some exterior lighting, spent time dressing it and ensuring clips were even and runs where straight. I went back a few weeks later to se my friend and I felt a great sense of pride. That feeling is well worth the extra Time and patience.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Ninety one posts because someone put EXISTING T&E into Kopex.

 

[Ian1981]

Correction, 93 !

 

[Mike Johnson]

Arn't there guideline's in the UK on how full a conduit can be?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Ninety one posts because someone put EXISTING T&E into Kopex.

Technically it was new TaE as it was a rewire job + new consumer unit

 

[Ian1981]

Arn't there guideline's in the UK on how full a conduit can be?

Yes there’s a conduit factor but it is based on singles. I think for other cables it’s something like 35-45% should be left as free space for circulation of heat dissipation or drawing in of other conductors but I’d have to check as it’s written in GN1 and the on site guide.
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Taken from GN1

 

[7029 dave]

When I was an apprentice, we rewired a lot of old Victorian house in Highgate London, the VIR's on some installations were surface in a wooden type channel which you could physical see them lying in.
Trunking?

 

[Pete999]

When I was an apprentice, we rewired a lot of old Victorian house in Highgate London, the VIR's on some installations were surface in a wooden type channel which you could physical see them lying in.
Trunking?

Capping and casing lots of it in Bath back when I were a Lad.

 

[davesparks]

When I was an apprentice, we rewired a lot of old Victorian house in Highgate London, the VIR's on some installations were surface in a wooden type channel which you could physical see them lying in.
Trunking?

Capping and casing, you don't see much of it these days.

It was an acceptable equivalent to trunking at the time, kind of the original mini-trunking.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Technically it was new TaE as it was a rewire job + new consumer unit

Did not look like it to me as the T&E was connected into the existing CU.

It also did not look as though he had left 65% of that Kopex vacant, thanks Ian for the GN1 guide which confirms that T&E is taken as the diameter of the major axis of the cable, it also mention diameter includes insulation and sheath, so seems to imply that T&E can be installed in conduit.