Last Job

[claret73]

Any contributions here to Regs compliance, either deviation or all fine & dandy...

Have just fitted, along with my boss 12 Fire rated down lighters into an ongoing kitchen conversion. Original down lighters were low voltage. The ceiling had been dropped by 100mm(ish) and plaster boarded when original lighting installation was put in...
& here the problems begin:-
1/ The new downlighters are too deep for the ceiling void (no insulation, just old wallpapered ceiling with lath & plaster). So slight hole cutting required in original ceiling to get depth of housing in (10-15mm.)
2/ Feeds & switch runs taken off 3x different old ceiling rose points (3 switching points required by customer) above the false ceiling. No length on cable so terminated into a 20A JB which does become not accessible once patched. 1.5mm flex looped out & round the downlighters.
3/ Board located in the cellar with no RCD protection, (except for the shower circuit which has been taken directly off the RCD) unprotected by a 6A MCB for all Ground floor lighting.
4/ Original switch drops run behind inaccessible cupboard (height of cupboard from floor almost to ceiling). Previous Sparks have jointed a choc block at each switch, which is hanging freely but very out of reach. The switch plates are mounted directly onto cupboard fascia, cable poked through a rectangular cutout in cupboard (no enclosure & earths not connected at switches - LV Downlighters no earths, just 2core).
5/ No tests or certs carried out upon completion.

I've been looking at Building Regs as to ceiling void issue, but still getting through qualies & trawling through Regs as to RCD upgrade (with new flex install onto existing circuit), but Building Regs state Kitchens as a location, new cables etc?...all very new scenarios to me at mo.

Any answers & advice to this would be appreciated...
Cheers

 

[Mac]

If the cables have been extended to the extension,then i believe the circuits have to be brought up to 17th ed.If there no earth's in the lighting circuits,how will the RCD trip.As it's a special location i would assume everything has to be RCD protected anyway.Sorry just read your post again,you said there are earth's at the switches.Just put them in connector block.Long day mate,if you have earth's at the switches but none at the lights,can't see how this will comply.Have you done any tests on the said circuits

 

[sparky paul]

.If there no earth's in the lighting circuits,how will the RCD trip.As it's a special location

A kitchen is not a special location


Its an area of increased risk

 

[Mac]

A kitchen is not a special location


Its an area of increased risk

I beg to differ mate.

KITCHENS
Kitchens are not a special location as far as
BS 7671 is concerned but they are special as​

far as Part P is concerned.
www.------.org/publishing/.../14a-part-p-special-locations.cfm?type...

 

[claret73]

Hi Mac
Lighting circuit is earthed. Previous lights were LV, so just 2 core. Extended flex jointed at JB from existing 1.5 T&E to feed 12x downlighters all earthed. We were going to surface mount switches & enclose them, but they couldn't open cupboard door, so left as is. I stripped back earth in T&E & connected at switch point.

To be honest it was a mish mash of a job! But I'm not so up (as I'm not cert signer or competent person I guess as training & still to do Regs etc) on these fine points & grey areas that creep between BS7671 & Building Regs complying with Part P...

I do have Building Regs, OSG & 7671 but scenarios like this just don't answer you that well unless you well up on the points...
Cheers Mate

 

[Mac]

Hi Mac
Lighting circuit is earthed. Previous lights were LV, so just 2 core. Extended flex jointed at JB from existing 1.5 T&E to feed 12x downlighters all earthed. We were going to surface mount switches & enclose them, but they couldn't open cupboard door, so left as is. I stripped back earth in T&E & connected at switch point.

To be honest it was a mish mash of a job! But I'm not so up (as I'm not cert signer or competent person I guess as training & still to do Regs etc) on these fine points & grey areas that creep between BS7671 & Building Regs complying with Part P...

I do have Building Regs, OSG & 7671 but scenarios like this just don't answer you that well unless you well up on the points...
Cheers Mate

No worries mate,i'm not Part P registered,but have worked for Part P sparks.All circuits in the kitchen need to be RCD protected.

 

[electricAl]

For accuracy here chaps, 7671 nor Building Regs consider a kitchen as a Special Location NOR a Special Installation. Neither do kitchens need to have all circuits RCD protected.

As someone already suggested, the building regs do difffer from `our` Regs in that they define a kitchen as a higher shock risk area than other living zones. Thats why they insist on most work involved in a kitchen being notifiable. I suspect thats why so many confuse it as similiar to a bathroom - work in either requires notification. However, bathrooms are Spec.Locations but kitchens are NOT.

Requirements for 30mA RCD protection within a kitchen is no different than other living areas either - not as per bathrooms or shower rooms. So, they`re required for all socket outlets & for cables concealed in walls at less than 50mm (or any wall with metallic components)

As to the job in question, no offence, but it reads like the blind leading the blind - altho big credit to you as the `learner` on the job - atleast you`re questioning what your boss has done. & based on your post, you`re right to.

Where to start? If i take the points in the order you list them...

1) May have misunderstood exactly what you`ve done, but it sounds as if your boss has butted the new D/Ls upto the original ceiling - doesn`t sound like you`ve left adaquate ventilation room above - typically shoulld be at least 50mm in all directions, even for most ELV lights. Yet more room required if fiiting dichroic lamps.
2) Screw connections in inaccessible places (covered over ceiling roses etc) Use of flex as part of covered fixed wiring? Not for me. Maybe your boss mistakenly thought if he used flex it wouldn`t need RCD protection?
3)Contentious one this. As i stated, RCD protection is required for any concealed cables in walls <50mm. Now, this requirement is not retrospective (as in, overnight, all properties with cables in walls must be immediately RCD protected) However, if adding or modifying the cct, then there is a requirement to achieve compliance with current regs. There is an strong arguement of ""if you work on it (change/modify in any way), then the whole circuit has to comply". Some may regard that as too penalising so they fudge it - simply check earthing/bonding is aok (some not even that) For me, assuming cables concealed in walls exist in the `part` of cct i was working on, i`d just have to do it properly & RCD the cct. If no buried cables in that `part ` of cct then, errr.. maybe not
4) As Building Regs regard fitted kitchens as part of the `fabric` of the building (hence allowing the fitting of switch plates to cupboards) then these could be regarded as `walls` - therefore, cables buried behind them may require 30mA RCD protection as covered above.
As for the none-enclosed switch backs & choc-blocs
& no earths at switches...i think the original fitters were a bit confused by the new fangled ELV lights.
(even me old mate Mac got confused about this bit - RCDs trip when we humans act as an earth -whether the cct is earthed or not doesn`t come into it. Senility is a terrible thing isn`t it )
The only part of such a cct not to be earthed is that on the secondary side i.e > the ELV output from tx & beyond. You atleast knew enough to earth the switch plates Shame your boss, boyo!
5) Why am i not surprised?

Hope my rather long post serves to help & inform you - any sarcasm contained is directed at your `boss` & not at you.

Al

 

[claret73]

Thanks Al
Some points cleared up there for me. This is issue at the moment for me. 1 Guy showing me & on a practical level unless I know of anything different through what I read or am informed of at College, I'm none the wiser for the current time...

Yes, Housing of Lamp is flush up to ceiling ...

The Old ceiling roses had been left in as this was where the feeds & switches were taken from. The dropped ceiling that had been put up, they'd placed a batten over one to support the plasterboard fixing . The roses were removed & replaced with a 20A JB. All existing feeds & switch drops connected & a flex out to feed first downlight. Now I'm aware of the accessible rule and need to re-read some info I have on enclosures for this.

As we extended/replaced the existing ELV lights with new flex feeds, this is where I took it that RCD requirements were needed on that circuit. Cannot remember board if had spare way, but I assume replacing MCB with RCBO would the way?

The original switch drops behind the floor standing cupboard were inaccessible. So without the client ripping out her cupboard (think size of a wardrobe) not certain how this could be rectified. It didn't look great, but then...

Tests???...Just starting L3 so will be doing plenty of this, so will ask the Lecturers whom I pay good money to for my learning!

Cheers Al for your response! Much appreciated...

Just searched for this, which clearly states that this job should have been notifiable...

"Notifiable jobs include new circuits back to the consumer unit and extensions to circuits in kitchens" and special locations (bathrooms etc.) and associated with special installations (garden lighting and power installations etc.)