Discuss Reference method A & B current rating in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

G

Gardner

Using IEC reference method A and B for loose wires in conduit a I have derived the following max OCPD and in turn maximum current loading for general use circuits:

1.5mm2: 10 amp MCB reference method A, 16 amp MCB reference method B

2.5mm2: 20 amp MCB (Both A & B)

4mm2: 25 amp MCB reference method A; 32 amp MCB Reference B

6mm2: 32 amp MCB reference method A, 40 amp MCB reference method B

10mm2: 40 amp MCB reference method A, 50 amp MCB reference method B

16mm2: 63 amp MCB reference method A, 70 amp MCB reference method B


Do my numbers sound correct? I may have rounded a few numbers in method B, so A would probably be the best approach. Just double checking.
 
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You've gone about this backwards, you need to select your OCPD which is suitable for the load and then you calculate the cable size required from that.
 
Does this mean the OCPD determines the current or the load? I may need an example.

You work out the design current, which is the current required by the load.
Then you select an OCPD which is equal to or higher than this current, this is the nominal current.
You then apply the cable rating factors to the nominal current which gives you the minimum permissible tabulated current carrying capacity of the cable.
You then select a cable size from the appropriate table which has a current carrying capacity equal to or greater than the required minimum.
You then use the tabulated voltage drop to confirm whether this will comply.
 
You work out the design current, which is the current required by the load.
Then you select an OCPD which is equal to or higher than this current, this is the nominal current.
You then apply the cable rating factors to the nominal current which gives you the minimum permissible tabulated current carrying capacity of the cable.
You then select a cable size from the appropriate table which has a current carrying capacity equal to or greater than the required minimum.
You then use the tabulated voltage drop to confirm whether this will comply.

Ok so:

A 5kw imersion heater, 5000/230=22amps. This would equate to a 25 amp MCB being the next standard size up. Thus my nominal current is not the load current but rather my MCB rating, so I would examine my installation method and base that off of 25 amps. Assuming 3 wires (L+N+E) in conduit in a thermall insualted wall with the conduit touching the inner surface I would use IEC refernce A giving me 4mm2 copper wire.

Assuming for example a 15 meter run and using V= {2I (Rc cos + Xc sin) L}/1000 I get a voltage drop of about 4 volts of 1.6%, which as long as it does not exceed 5% this is ok?

Sound about right?

And my earth fault loop impedance calculation assumes a conductor temprature of 70*Celcuis?
 
Load, breaker wire? Im confused lol.
6f30d1a9924624abc16a0279e2eb688a.jpg


1d3fb26ebcbb285d6ccd1df1a62a920f.jpg
 
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Ok so:

A 5kw imersion heater, 5000/230=22amps. This would equate to a 25 amp MCB being the next standard size up. Thus my nominal current is not the load current but rather my MCB rating, so I would examine my installation method and base that off of 25 amps. Assuming 3 wires (L+N+E) in conduit in a thermall insualted wall with the conduit touching the inner surface I would use IEC refernce A giving me 4mm2 copper wire.

Assuming for example a 15 meter run and using V= {2I (Rc cos + Xc sin) L}/1000 I get a voltage drop of about 4 volts of 1.6%, which as long as it does not exceed 5% this is ok?

Sound about right?

And my earth fault loop impedance calculation assumes a conductor temprature of 70*Celcuis?
Sounds generally good to me, some minor notes (which don't affect the overall outcome):

(1) 25A MCBs are not common, you might struggle to find one, generally your choice is 20A or 32A

(2) The design is for a fixed load, and so overload protection is not required. The load on the circuit will not increase unless the heater is replaced by one having a higher rating, in which case you'll need to check the adequacy of the circuit. The OCPD in this case is for protection against fault currents only. Hence it is your design current, Ib (=22A), not the rated current of the protective device, In (=25A, or more realistically, 32A) that you use, so:

It >= Ib/(Ca Cg Cs Cd Ci Cc)

You would still end up with the same CSA (=4mm2)

(3) In determining voltage drop, it is always the design current (rather than the rated current of the protective device) that you use. From table 4D1A of BS 7671, VD = 11mV/A/m (ref A&B, 2 cable, single phase ac) = 11 x 22 x 15 = 3.63V, which as you say is fine.

(4) You mention "3 wires (L + N + E)", for the sake of clarity, the "E" wire is not "counted" when looking up the number of wires in the table. The current-carrying cables, the live ones, are the ones that count.
 
Ok thanks! :D

Over load proection is not required for all fixed in place applainces some are exampt? So In theory it is ok to have a higher MCB relative to the current carrying capacity of the wire provided the load does not exceed the capcity of the wire and the breaker is only upsized because the next required size not avaliable? However anything to a socket must have over load protection so the current carry capcity must be equal to or greater than the MCB?

Good point on not counting the E. It never should be. My understaning, and correct me if I am wrong, is that in a 3P+N circuit the neutral is not counted as a current carry conductor for de-rating unless the load in none linear in wave form?
 
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Regarding your first paragraph, basically, yes... although it's not that some are "exempt", it's just that if it's a fixed load, you know what the load is. If there are socket-outlets, then you don't know what the load is (depends on what's plugged in).

overcurrent_reqs.jpg

Regarding your second point, you've got that spot on. Third order harmonics (and higher), even in a balanced 3P system, mean you'll get a neutral current and this needs to be taken into account in the rating factor.
 
But this openly says that someone may replace a shower with a higher load? Or its determined that only qualified personal will be replacing the shower?
 
A fixed piece of equipment with a known maximum load (that is less than the protective device rating) does not need to be protected against overload current only short circuit current, though I always think it is a good idea to have overload protection in place.
A maintenance replacement of a matching item would not require the circuit to be reassessed, though it may be wise to check for deterioration.
The replacement of an item for one of a higher load would require the circuit to be assessed as suitable for that load.
 
But this openly says that someone may replace a shower with a higher load? Or its determined that only qualified personal will be replacing the shower?

Essentially, yes. :)

(Edit: I see Richard has replied a lot more succinctly in the time it took me to type all this out!)

I could find 3 regulations pertaining to this, plus a definition; the relevant parts are quoted below (from amendment 3):

132.16 Additions and alterations to an installation: No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances...

134.1.1 Good workmanship by skilled or instructed persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers' instructions.

134.2.1 During erection and on completion of an installation or an addition or alteration to an installation, and before it is put into service, appropriate inspection and testing shall be carried out by skilled persons competent to verify that the requirements of this Standard have been met.

Definition: Skilled person (electrically): Person who possesses, as appropriate to the nature of the electrical work to be undertaken, adequate education, training and practical skills, and who is able to perceive risks and avoid hazards which electricity can create.


So this says three things:

(1) Before you make changes, you need to make sure the existing installation is adequate. (2) Skilled or instructed persons will install. (3) During and after an alteration, appropriate inspection and testing shall be carried out by skilled persons, competent to do this. Inspection includes determination of conductor CSA, reference methods etc, all relevant to suitability of the intallation.

In the case above - which boils down to, "it's a fixed load, so you use the load current to determine the CSA, rather than the rating of the protective device" - the key word here perhaps is "can." It permits the designer to make efficient and economical use of resources (copper).

Let's say you can't get hold of a 25A MCB (quite a reasonable assumption) and use a 32A protective device. Assuming no rating factors and reference method A, if you use "It >= In / C...." then you would need to use 6mm conductors, rather than 4mm. Maybe there's not much cost difference... perhaps the designer considers a higher future load is likely, and specifies 6mm cables anyway (this may help with meeting disconnection times if Zdb is high, too). They are allowed to do this. But equally if, after due design considerations, they determine that 4mm is adequate for the fixed load to be installed, they can do this as it is permitted in the regulations.

It is up to future installers/designers who wish to make alterations to determine whether the existing installation would be suitable. An installer who sees a 32A MCB, works out that this can "take up to" a 7.36kW load and installs such a load without consideration of the rating of the existing equipment (e.g. CSA of conductors) will be adequate for the altered circumstances would not be complying with 132.16, nor with 134.2.1 and would not, therefore, be "skilled (electrically)". If the installation catches fire and causes death, my understanding would be that it will be the person making the alteration, NOT the original designer, in the dock for manslaughter.

(Caveat: It's in my signature, but it's worth stating explicitly - I'm only a trainee. This is my understanding of BS 7671. They are not exactly written in easy language, are they?!?) :)
 
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I think this is a perfect interpretation! Excellent info, exactly what I was trying to understand and you hit the nail on the head! :D


..............................................................................

Last question just to help me understand. Ive been looking at some other IEC based current carrying capacity and I am getting less conservative values for MCB installations. I am correct to assume that these values violate BS7671?

http://img8.bricozone.be/14819508e4c893c74d.jpg

http://img8.bricozone.be/1988452660da267df2.jpg
 
I think this is a perfect interpretation! Excellent info, exactly what I was trying to understand and you hit the nail on the head! :D


..............................................................................

Last question just to help me understand. Ive been looking at some other IEC based current carrying capacity and I am getting less conservative values for MCB installations. I am correct to assume that these values violate BS7671?

http://img8.bricozone.be/14819508e4c893c74d.jpg

http://img8.bricozone.be/1988452660da267df2.jpg
I think you've answered your own question, there (sort of). :)

It's not that they would violate BS 7671. It's just that we don't know what sort of cables they are. If they are mineral insulated cables, then the values in those tables are very conservative, and the current carrying capacity would be higher. If they are 70 deg C thermoplastic insulated cables, then no.

This type of table is very attractive, and you'll often find catalogues for cables with simple relationships between current carrying capacity and cross sectional area; for example, this company, which I used quite a lot when I was doing 12V DC wiring on my various boats: Single Core PVC Cable > Cables > Home > Vehicle Wiring Products Ltd

But BS 7671, and the training you receive to understand it (and the Art of electrical installation) tells us that it's generally a bit more complicated than that. :)
 
This for Twin and earth cable derived from French IEC codes. Which makes me scratch my head, unless the reference method is clipped direct to wall?
 

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