Dodgy electrics in many homes >:(

[RobinMitchell]

Hi Everyone,

I have noticed that in the past three houses that I have lived in there are always dodgy electrics.

In my bedroom there was a humming sound that always came from the ceiling rose but until now I assumed it was the dimmer switch. So today I changed the switch to a standard one (on off), but the buzzing was still there.

So at this point I knew "Damn, that has to be an electrical arc :O", so I took out the ceiling rose and to my disgust found the worse set of wiring skills ever. The ceiling rose does not have any terminal blocks built in which is why I did not mind finding loose terminal blocks. But one of these connectors was a transparent piece of plastic that has mini grips to connect multiple wires to a common bus. I took that out, cleaned all the connections and no more buzzing. I believe that the plastic connector was either old or the mechanical grips (no screws, just the force of the bent metal), was not making a solid contact so add some erosion and oxide and you have the perfect spark generator.

The previous house had wires not even on the correct circuits and the consumer units was useless.

Sometimes I just think to myself "ARRGGHH". How can this work pass at all? Is it being done by DIY people? Are there electricians who do work this badly? Its obvious to me that there are people who should just not be allowed near electrics.

Anyone care to share their disappointing stories?

 

[RobinMitchell]

I also forgot to mention how two, TWO, separate bathrooms in this house have a switch instead of a pull cord. Maybe they are outside the zones??? Nope, I can (no exaggeration), place my right hand over the faceplate and have my left hand in the running water. I dont need to read BS7671 to tell me that is in a terrible place!

 

[hightower]

I also forgot to mention how two, TWO, separate bathrooms in this house have a switch instead of a pull cord. Maybe they are outside the zones??? Nope, I can (no exaggeration), place my right hand over the faceplate and have my left hand in the running water. I dont need to read BS7671 to tell me that is in a terrible place!

Pretty sure you can install a switch outside of zone 2 which is 0.6 metres from edge of tub. Since your outstretched hand to your nose is around one metre this tells me the switch is well out of zone 2.

Might be a different story if you could switch the switch with the same hand that is in water, but how is it any different to being able to switch a kitchen socket off while the other hand is in the sink?

 

[HandySparks]

...I dont need to read BS7671...

Yes you do.

 

[RobinMitchell]

I measured the switch and it is in-fact inside the zone 2 (around 40cm). When I said I do not need to read BS7671 what I was implying was that the distance between the switch and tub is obviously too close.

By the way, BS7671 is not a legal document, its a guide line for common practice. In a court of law you can use the BS7671 to show that your work is satisfactory.

 

[hightower]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by telling a forum of seasoned sparks that bs7671 is non-statutory

 

[RobinMitchell]

A member took a statement from my other post out of context completely. To be honest looking back on it I am not even sure why I posted the remark on BS7671 :S Maybe I'm just very tired right now (and ill with the cold, yay).

What I was trying to say was that the switch is obviously close to the sink. (An idiot could tell you that without looking at BS7671). Sort of like having bare live wires just hanging around in the middle of the room, anyone can tell you that its dangerous (dont need a book for that one).

 

[Marvo]

.....What I was trying to say was that the switch is obviously close to the sink. (An idiot could tell you that without looking at BS7671). .....

Does the bathroom electrical zoning take sinks/basins into consideration in the UK?

 

[ruston]

And did you leave it like that , or have it altered?

 

[HandySparks]

Are there electricians who do work this badly? Its obvious to me that there are people who should just not be allowed near electrics.

Part of the problem is that the Part P Competent Person Schemes only require the company to be registered, not the individual tradesman.

Also, unless someone's killed or seriously injured and the HSE get involved, there are, in practise, no real penalties for poor work.

 

[Sintra]

Does the bathroom electrical zoning take sinks/basins into consideration in the UK?

Not that I know of.

 

[HandySparks]

Does the bathroom electrical zoning take sinks/basins into consideration in the UK?

The current, Amendment 3, regs make no reference to basins (other than shower basins) when defining the zones in rooms containing a bath or shower. Hence the need to actually read the regs!

 

[Marvo]

The current, Amendment 3, regs make no reference to basins (other than shower basins) when defining the zones in rooms containing a bath or shower. Hence the need to actually read the regs!

I have a copy kicking about somewhere but gawd knows where, they're not something I refer to more than once a year maybe and I'm pretty sure my copy isn't the latest amendment....hence the stupid questions.

 

[HandySparks]

I have a copy kicking about somewhere but gawd knows where, they're not something I refer to more than once a year maybe and I'm pretty sure my copy isn't the latest amendment....hence the stupid questions.

My second sentence wasn't aimed at you Marvo. I know that you won't have much use for BS7671 where you are.

 

[RobinMitchell]

Im shocked that a sink does not fall under section 702

 

[RobinMitchell]

General Technical FAQ's

This recommends that the device be at least 300mm away from the sink which it is. But I cannot believe that this is good practice in any way. If you are in a situation where you have wet hands (or in splashing distance), there should be no out let or mains switch unless isolated via a transformer to a lower voltage. The only exception I can think of is a switch that has is all plastic and uses a rubber membrane to seal the internal electrics.

 

[Andy78]

So the extent of your gripes about dodgy electrics are fatigued connectors and plate switches in bathrooms ?

In the words of Bachman Turner Overdrive, you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

 

[RobinMitchell]

Oh god is there worse to come?

Mind you, I have seen the following as well:

Piece of metal instead of fuse
Scissors in earth to connect American plug
Bare conductors with no insulation close to each other
80mA RCD in a TT system
Downstairs light was not connected to down stairs light circuit. Dad got shocked :/

I know that people here will have seen far worse but it still upsets me to know this happens frequently.

 

[snowhead]

Im shocked that a sink does not fall under section 702

You need to understand the difference between contact and immersion.

 

[snowhead]

Downstairs light was not connected to down stairs light circuit. Dad got shocked :/

Failure to carry out safe isolation.

 

[Sparkie30]

Not sure how he ended in ther.

 

[HandySparks]

Downstairs light was not connected to down stairs light circuit.

This is down to poor labelling and documentation, not in the wiring installation. Many houses have lighting on multiple floors on the same circuit. Hence the need to assume that a wire or fitting is live until proved otherwise.

 

[davesparks]

Oh god is there worse to come?

Mind you, I have seen the following as well:

Piece of metal instead of fuse
Scissors in earth to connect American plug
Bare conductors with no insulation close to each other
80mA RCD in a TT system
Downstairs light was not connected to down stairs light circuit. Dad got shocked :/

I know that people here will have seen far worse but it still upsets me to know this happens frequently.

What's wrong with an 80mA RCD in a TT system, or any system for that matter? (Not that 80mA RCDs are even available as a standard item in this country)

Having lighting circuits mixed so that each floor of a house has lights on multiple circuits is actually a very good idea as it allows a degree of light to remain from nearby rooms if an MCB trips and could help prevent accidents occurring.

 

[davesparks]

Hi Everyone,

I have noticed that in the past three houses that I have lived in there are always dodgy electrics.

In my bedroom there was a humming sound that always came from the ceiling rose but until now I assumed it was the dimmer switch. So today I changed the switch to a standard one (on off), but the buzzing was still there.

So at this point I knew "Damn, that has to be an electrical arc :O", so I took out the ceiling rose and to my disgust found the worse set of wiring skills ever. The ceiling rose does not have any terminal blocks built in which is why I did not mind finding loose terminal blocks. But one of these connectors was a transparent piece of plastic that has mini grips to connect multiple wires to a common bus. I took that out, cleaned all the connections and no more buzzing. I believe that the plastic connector was either old or the mechanical grips (no screws, just the force of the bent metal), was not making a solid contact so add some erosion and oxide and you have the perfect spark generator.

The previous house had wires not even on the correct circuits and the consumer units was useless.

Sometimes I just think to myself "ARRGGHH". How can this work pass at all? Is it being done by DIY people? Are there electricians who do work this badly? Its obvious to me that there are people who should just not be allowed near electrics.

Anyone care to share their disappointing stories?

The connector you described sounds like it could be something similar to a wago push fit connector. It is far more likely that the poor connection resulted from corroded/tarnished conductors being inserted into the connector rather than the connection degrading. These connectors have gone through rigorous testing and approvals.
Do you have any pictures of the offending articles so that we can get a better idea of what you are talking about? If it is a failure in a wago type connector then I, and probably many members, will be very interested to see this as these connectors are becoming widely used now.

 

[RobinMitchell]

The connector you described sounds like it could be something similar to a wago push fit connector. It is far more likely that the poor connection resulted from corroded/tarnished conductors being inserted into the connector rather than the connection degrading. These connectors have gone through rigorous testing and approvals.
Do you have any pictures of the offending articles so that we can get a better idea of what you are talking about? If it is a failure in a wago type connector then I, and probably many members, will be very interested to see this as these connectors are becoming widely used now.

Dont have a picture but here is what it looks like (exactly as you described):
http://www.mallinson-electrical.com...eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/2/2273205_1.jpg

Chances are these push connectors dont give you the same mechanical contact strength as most other connectors do. Dont think I will ever be using this type of connector personally.

 

[Andy78]

Dont have a picture but here is what it looks like (exactly as you described):
http://www.mallinson-electrical.com...eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/2/2273205_1.jpg

Chances are these push connectors dont give you the same mechanical contact strength as most other connectors do. Dont think I will ever be using this type of connector personally.

As above, these connectors are widespread and proven to be effective and safe. They have been used across Europe for decades as far as I know, I recall them being incorporated into light fittings in the UK for at least 15 years, and they are now becoming the norm in the UK.
A badly prepared cable conductor is more than likely the cause of the problem as Davesparks said.